Christian holy city
- Thread starter Lokolus
- Start date
onedreamer
Dragon
I voted Rome. That's where people met for the Jubilee in 2000. I just think that Rome is in a better position, moving the Holy City to Jerusalem would mean seeing Christianity in the Middle East and beyond. When 2 solutions are both suitable/acceptable you have to look at the strategic/gameplay implications before realism, IMO.
Exactly. In Civ 4, the holy city is supposed to represent the place where the religion was founded, and where the holy building is located (The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem for Christianity). Jerusalem is the most logical choice, now that we have the Apostolic Palace to give Rome the religious significance it has had in history.
Plus, it would give people an actual reason to meddle around in the Middle East. Currently all I see is a battle between Turkey and Arabia for the city, with no European powers remotely interested in it.
dionysos2048
AntiSarko
Simply as it should be.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
I would like it in jerusalem, but it kind of screws with the spreading.If it's in the Middle East, it will spread to the middle east. This means Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam are equal for a chance to enter Europe.
TheAmerican
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2007
- Messages
- 179
Not if the former Roman empire is already Christian.
We're talking about the 600AD start here, right? In the 3000BC start, the holy city can be anywhere. In the late start, many European cities in the former Roman Empire (Rome, Milan, Marseille, Athens, Constantinople...) start out with Christianity.
my biggest problem with the holy city being in Rome in the 600AD start is that Rome is too easily conquered by France. France holds Rome in about 90% of the games I play. Obviously this makes France too powerful.
One other possible solution is to make the defenders of Rome stronger, to represent the independence of Vatican City.
One other possible solution is to make the defenders of Rome stronger, to represent the independence of Vatican City.
Squirrelloid
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2007
- Messages
- 263
Despite voting for Jerusalem, i don't actually think that location should be "Jerusalem" at all, at least not to any but a european controlling civ.
In the ancient era, it should be Tyre (which is right there, and was a hugely important Phoenician city).
For Arabia and Turkey and possibly some others, it should possibly be Damascus. Although Tyre still works just fine.
Jerusalem as the most important city in that area is a development of the modern world. (Ok, and possibly in the Roman world - although the historical Judea is hard to nail down very well).
In the ancient era, it should be Tyre (which is right there, and was a hugely important Phoenician city).
For Arabia and Turkey and possibly some others, it should possibly be Damascus. Although Tyre still works just fine.
Jerusalem as the most important city in that area is a development of the modern world. (Ok, and possibly in the Roman world - although the historical Judea is hard to nail down very well).
Corm
Prince
What he said.
onedreamer
Dragon
Instead of making a poll based solely on personal opinions of a supposed realism rather than actual gameplay consequences (what's worse between Holy City in Rome or having Christianity in the middle east and possibly Christian Arabs ?), I would test how moving the holy city to Jerusalem actually would work in the game. I would bet that many would change opinion if they see the results I'm guessing... and I would be the first to change in favor of moving it if this doesn't happen.
Tyre is in the game in the 3000 BC start (Sur) Jerusalem was an important city both for trade and religion, Jerusalem is holy for Islam, Christianity an Judaism as well being in the middle of two continents (Asia and Africa). I dont really mind Adding Damascus two plots north and one east as it should be.
you can say it in the "More, stronger, better independents" Thread. (hidden advertise)
sdLeo
Cosmopolitan
'nuff said!
I voted for Jerusalem, because as a Catholic, if I wanted to visit the holy city of my religion, I would visit Jerusalem. If I wanted to visit the place where the religion was controlled, developed, and expanded, I would visit Rome. (aka: I agree with having the AP in Rome, HC in Jerusalem.)
Squirrelloid
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2007
- Messages
- 263
Hmm... having never managed to actually capture Sur because its always size 1...
And Tyre is virtually directly west of Jerusalem (which is not on the coast). Until the industrial/modern era, Tyre was a far more important city than Jerusalem for all purposes except religion.
I think you also overestimate the size of that region. Damascus is not that far north, and basically on top of Jerusalem at the scale of civ maps as I recall. I mean, the entire crusades basically occur in 3 tiles strung N-S there along the coast. (Ignoring the crusade in Egypt, and the crusade in southern France, and so forth).
Where Sur is would be where Antioch was during the crusades - i'm not entirely certain what its ancient name would be, but i know what cities that is *not*.
I'm also vaguely confused about the weird naming conventions for Jerusalem (Urshalim), as in theory it would have been founded by the Jews after their exodus in Egypt, and thus wouldn't have had a Sumerian/Babylonian style name. (Ok, barring hebrew characters, it would probably best be romanized as Iervsalem in the ancient/classical period, as J and U weren't letters until the 1400-1500s).
Like most of the people, in 600 AD Jerusalem as Holy city and Rome with the palace is right in term of realist. And in terms in gameplay, it allow crusades in the middle-east, and prevents France or Germany to become too easily powerful by invading rome earlier. In that configuration, and with a strong garnison in Rome, France or Germany will have only little interest to control Rome, and then papal states may keep independance.
However, some tests will have to be made in order to be sure that it won't cause any trouble : arab who switch to christianty, or christianty which spreads in asia.
However, some tests will have to be made in order to be sure that it won't cause any trouble : arab who switch to christianty, or christianty which spreads in asia.
