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Christian Holy City?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by blizzrd, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    I know that in the latest patch, the Church of the Nativity was moved to Jersualem. But why is Rome still the Christian Holy City (little star against the city name)?
    Is is to ensure that Christianity spreads faster from there to the Euopean civs? Because if it is, this seems counter-intuitive to me.

    And a different question: If Jerusalem is razed, can the Church of the Nativity then be built with a GP in Rome (under the current arrangement)? I haven't tried this, but it might just work - which would be weird to say the least.
     
  2. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    why would it be possible ? World Wonders can only be built once. And Rome as Holy City makes sense.
     
  3. a1Basco

    a1Basco Warlord

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    If you are Roman Catholic. >.>
     
  4. ADP101

    ADP101 Warlord

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    Rhye made it so becuz in many games arabia turned christian (i think) And arabia is a BIG empire and always doesnt make it to what it was in history. The church of navity gives them more Gold so it helps their economy
     
  5. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    Would another way of solving the Christian Arabs situation (due to the spread of Christianity from Jerusalem) though be to code it so that the independent cities in Arabia (before the Arabs spawn) can't adopt Christianity? Sort of like under Theocracy? Or could these independent cities just be given Islam as they are created?

    I think it would be preferable to have a slower spread of Christianity around Europe, spreading from Jerusalem, than the somewhat quicker spread from Rome that appears to currently be the case. If a Christian Arabia is the problem, perhaps one of these alternative solutions could be implemented.

    Rhye?
     
  6. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Catholicism is not in the game, yet, hence....

    There has been a poll about all this, and there are valid reasons to be like this and to stay like this. Should we re-discuss this sort of things every 2 months ? Just check the previous threads.
     
  7. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    In the game, for a significant part of the game, most of the Christians are Roman Catholic.

    It also centres religious spread around Europe.
     
  8. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    we had a poll about this already...
     
  9. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    Afaik, all of the denominations of Christianity extant today are ultimately derived from the official Church of the Roman Empire.

    But this has all been discussed ad nauseum.
     
  10. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    Even the Coptic Church/Nestorians and Monophysites (who rejected the Council of Chalcedon)?
     
  11. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    The fact that they rejected the Council of Chalcedon infers they accepted the first three (all called by Emperors). And Nestorius was Bishop of Constantinople.
     
  12. blizzrd

    blizzrd Micromanager

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    Well my apologies for not knowing this, but I became active in these forums only about 2 months ago and when I posted my question this week I neglected to spend hours trawling through pages of old threads to see if my question had already been asked. I suppose someone will tell me that I should have done this. They would be incorrect and can save themselves the keystrokes in saying so.

    My first question remains unanswered however: Why is Rome still the Christian Holy City?

    On conquering Rome, I saw the little star but no Church of Nativity and was misled to believe that I could build the Church of the Nativity in Rome if I sent in a Great Prophet. That was a considerable waste of my energies tweaking specialists to encourage a Great Prophet. With hindsight I could have checked the World Wonder list, but this does not make me feel any less frustrated about what to do with my now less-than-useful Great Prophet. If there was no available Shrine to build I would have much preferred to generate an alternate Great Person - Engineer probably.

    The moving of the Church of the Nativity but not the Christian Holy City is in my opinion an unclean break with a mechanic of CivIV. I have no problem with Jerusalem being the location with both. But if Jerusalem is to be the location of the Church, it should definitely also be the centre from which Christianity spreads.

    As I suggested earlier, if Chrisitian Arabia is the unwanted byproduct of making Jerusalem the Christian Holy City as well as the location of the Church of the Nativity - then why not make the independent Arabian cities default to start with Islam? Wouldn't this be an effective solution?
     
  13. Shiggs713

    Shiggs713 Immortal

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    Its basically a cheap way of getting around a game mechanic problem.

    No matter what anyone says, Rome should NOT be a holy city. It was not ever, never will be, and is not realistic in any manor.

    But even after saying that, it doesn't really bother me that much... mostly just a slight eye sore.
     
  14. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    As stated in this thread.
    a) It helps keep Christianity away from Arabia
    b) Provides a centre for religious spread in Europe
    c) It is pretty much a holy city. It is the centre of the Catholic church, which the majority of Christians were connected to in 600AD. It is still for the majority of Christians.

    Sure by the definition of Holy City, Rome doesn't fit, but by game mechanics, it does.

    The reason that the Shrine can't be in Rome, is that with it there, Rome is OP, plain and simple. As any European/middle Eastern civ, in order to win your UHV, the best chance is to take Rome.
     
  15. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    You really wouldn't have to do that. The fact is this subject really has been done to death here. Fair enough you might have missed it, but now you've been told perhaps you could read through some of the earlier threads rather than have us repeat it all to you?
     
  16. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    Rome was the centre of Christianity in the middle ages. Jerusalem was a far place, only symbolic.
    In addition to this, there's the issue of Christianity spreading directed to Arabia instead of Europe. (and I just solved the Christian Turkey issue....)

    Independent cities won't start with Islam because I DON'T hardcode religion founding.
    Islam, in the 3000BC start, is free to be founded by anyone, as the other religions. But if no-one researches Divine Right by a certain date, Arabia will spawn with the tech, and found as consequence. 600AD is just coherent with that approach, although no-one but Arabia will found it.
     
  17. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    There is a search function in this forum. You type in "Rome Holy City" and find the poll started from Rhye at the 11th place (would be 10th if you didn't start this thread), very visibile. It took me approximately 30 seconds (a bit less), so your esteem of 7200 seconds is a bit exaggerated. You would also be able to read a lot of interesting comments on the matter and find the answer to your unanswered question, which remained unanswered because we're not going to re-express our opinions every time a newbie joins the forum. I hope you will understand and forgive our lazyness and respect for the hoster of this forum, who most probably pays for disk space. Every character is at least 1 byte.
     
  18. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Really ? Trivia question: where did a lot of people head to for the Christian Jubilee in 2000 AD ?

    Christianity, especially from after the Dark Ages, spread from Rome, and from a lot of other places in Europe and in very little part from Jerusalem, which was mostly under control of the Arabs, and even when it was under control of the Christians, it wasn't that the centre of diffusion of the religion. This continuous crusade for Jerusalem as the true Holy City of Christianity is just a completely unobjective twist of History.
     
  19. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    Oh no, I thought Turkey was supposed to be Christian...:lol:
    I think there must be a problem with Christianity preferentially spreading to Europe. In my most recent Persian game, I founded Christianity in Babili, and Arabia never founded Islam because I did my usual trick of destroying all initial units by recapturing a gifted city. Well, Netherlands founds Islam because they start with Divine Right. And yet, Germany, Spain, Rome, Russia and Vikings were all Christian! (Judaism being around for a lot longer)
    Another problem is that somehow England is more prone to Islam, even when surrounded by Christian neighbors and not having contacted Arabia. It doesn't suck (in fact getting an extra 10% science and 1 more happy face) but it takes the extra step of waiting for Christianity to spread and get those AP hammers.
     
  20. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    Sorry, I meant by the game's definition, of the location where the religion was founded. And while Rome was key in the development of Christianity, it doesn't fit that definition.
     

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