Christian soldiers: how do you reconcile your duty with the Sixth Commandment?

[classical_hero]

Even the Bible uses a different meaning for the same word, kill in a different passage. In Numbers 35 we have a whole section about cities of refuge for those who have killed unawares, or by mistake. These cities were around so that those people who committed these acts could be safe from retribution of being killed themselves. Also the Bible tells that those who have already killed someone needs to be put to death, so if that verse meant all forms of killing then their is no recourse for the government to kill those who have been found guilty of murder. Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 

[holy king]

As several have commented here...the correct translation is indeed 'Murder' and in turn, not all killing is murder.

for the catholics it's "kill". you heretics made it "murder".

 

[Berzerker]

Exodus 20:13

"You shall not murder."

I'm going to violate my usual habit of verbose and descriptive OPs, and simply get to the heart of it: How do you justify the commission of your duty, to slay your enemies, when the word of God clearly states you shall not kill your fellow man?

The same God instructed them to invade and conquer the lands "promised" them. I guess God didn't run the last tenants out yet. Moses and some men killed a dude for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. Clearly the prohibition on murder doesn't include war and punishing "criminals".

 

[Berzerker]

Well, cheezy, I would say our definition most certainly has its origins in how God defines it. For example, killing a person in the eyes of the law isnt always murder....it can also be manslaughter.....which is typically the charge given for a negligent, but accidental death and it carries a much lower punishment that all the levels of murder.

I wouldn't say it originated with God, people all over the world have similar gradients of homicide based on common sense distinctions between malice and accidents or even warfare.

 

[Narz]

Moses and some men killed a dude for gathering firewood on the Sabbath.

Is that really true? Holy crap, how do believe who actually read the Bible in full actually no keel over from the massive amount of hypocracy therein?

 

[Bronx Warlord]

If and when god wants to come outside the wire with me, he can keep his laws and judgements to himself. I for one am intrested in compleation of the mission, the survival of my Marines and myself.

 

[MayNilad Man]

And what about civilians?

Supposing that the best to ensure the completion of the mission and the survival of your marines was to kill everyone?

 

[Perfection]

Is that really true? Holy crap, how do believe who actually read the Bible in full actually no keel over from the massive amount of hypocracy therein?

Because they don't have the false interpretation that you do, Narziboo.

 

[El_Machinae]

The commandment doesn't seem to apply to non-Jews. Hence the acceptability of stabbing non-Jew babies.

It's like in the Koran, where Ummah (brother) applies only to fellow Muslims.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

And what about civilians?

Supposing that the best to ensure the completion of the mission and the survival of your marines was to kill everyone?

In all honesty, if it came down to a situation like that they would have to cross the line into combatant status. If and when that happens and trust me it does more often that you would like to think, . .. .. .. .'em.

 

[Narz]

Because they don't have the false interpretation that you do, Narziboo.

Uh, what false interpretation?

That gathering firewood isn't a mortal sin?

And I love how you pop out of the woodwork to give me a hard time about something you probably agree with me on.

If it's as simple as killing someone for firewood collection on a certain arbitrary day of the week (and I don't know that it is having no read most of the old testament) I don't see how one can interpret that away as not murdering?

If my interpretation is false are you saying you agree with the verdict?

 

[MobBoss]

Uh, what false interpretation?

That gathering firewood isn't a mortal sin?

And I love how you pop out of the woodwork to give me a hard time about something you probably agree with me on.

Its not about the firewood, Narz, its about working on the Sabbath. To those guys it was considered a mortal sin punishable by death.

Not hypocritical, as it was a rule that all were expected to comply with.

If it's as simple as killing someone for firewood collection on a certain rbitrary day of the week (and I don't know that it is having no read most of the old testament) I don't see how one can interpret that away as not murdering?

To them, its the same as putting someone to death for a capital crime. It wouldnt be murder.

 

[innonimatu]

Well, the original root word that 'murder' was translated from meant to 'assassinate'.....or to kill in cold blood.

In our modern society its the people, via the law, that decide what murder is.

That means the people, via the law, also get to decide about abortion and gay marriage, and you accept the results as fair and respectable from a religious POV?
You can't have it both ways, you know.

 

[MobBoss]

That means the people, via the law, also get to decide about abortion and gay marriage, and you accept the results as fair and respectable from a religious POV?
You can't have it both ways, you know.

As long as others accept them as fair and acceptable in the reverse.

If Roe V Wade gets overturned it should also be seen as 'fair and acceptable' since its the law.

If Gay marriage never gets approved in a majority of states, it should be 'fair and acceptable' as well since its been voted as a good number of state constitutions.

 

[Narz]

MobBoss (and others), you want to respond to my (serious) questions a page (or maybe two) back?

 

[Elrohir]

Exodus 20:13

"You shall not murder."

I'm going to violate my usual habit of verbose and descriptive OPs, and simply get to the heart of it: How do you justify the commission of your duty, to slay your enemies, when the word of God clearly states you shall not kill your fellow man? Even the US Marine Corps identifies the line of duty as "God, Corps, Country."

This question can be expanded, I suppose, to any religion which condemns murder, but Christianity being that with which I am most familar is my reason for singling it out.

Obviously, it doesn't mean all killing. In the Old Testament, on many occasions God commanded capital punishment and the waging of warfare. The idea that killing is inherently wrong is asinine. Not all killing is murder, in the same way that not all eating is gluttony, or all speech is a lie.

The Hebrew word used here is ratsach. Looking over it, I can't find any instances where it is used to describe lawful execution or killing in warfare. The closest I can find is Proverbs 22:13, where a man is talking about a lion in the streets that could kill him. So here's my challenge to you Cheezy: find a verse where this word is used to explicitly describe a lawful killing, as opposed to murder or manslaughter. (Both unlawful killings)

Aside from that, I have another question: Cheezy, do you really believe that the Ten Commandments forbid all killing of human beings? Or are you just curious as to see what our response would be?

The commandment doesn't seem to apply to non-Jews. Hence the acceptability of stabbing non-Jew babies.

It's like in the Koran, where Ummah (brother) applies only to fellow Muslims.

Leviticus 19:34 - "You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt. I, the LORD, am your God.

 

[MobBoss]

It's easy to imagine both sides in a war believe their killing is justified. Yet in God's eyes (taking a leap of faith here) it seems impossible that both sides are justified in killing the other.

With that said, how can you be sure, as a soldier, that you're on the right side?

Well, I suppose if you win, God was on your side. If not....not so much.

Fighting Nazi soldiers perhaps, the question of right & wrong seems fairly clear (even most modern Germans would probably agree) but what about in Vietnam? And in Iraq?

Even Gods chosen people in the OT lost a military engagement or two.

 

[Narz]

Well, I suppose if you win, God was on your side. If not....not so much.

Do you really believe that or is it just a copout answer?

 

[bhsup]

Reconciliation would first require a conflict. As there is no conflict with a commandment banning murder and killing an enemy in war, the thread is kind of meaningless.

 

[El_Machinae]

Leviticus 19:34 - "You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt. I, the LORD, am your God.

Thanks. I guess it's broader than just 'Jew'.

Do we have any reason to suppose the protection extends to those not of "Israeli dominion"? i.e., do we know if "alien" refers to people who're living in an Israeli kingdom or if there's a broader scope?

I can't think of an example of a Jew being prosecuted for killing a non-Jew, but I haven't thought about it too carefully.