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Christian soldiers: how do you reconcile your duty with the Sixth Commandment?

I always thought that at it's heart it was the "Christ died for you" arguement.



Christianity is at its heart a pacifist religion, you know...


At any rate, when one starts trying to understand the semantics of 2000+ year old books, one often gets different perspectives.
 
Thanks. I guess it's broader than just 'Jew'.

Do we have any reason to suppose the protection extends to those not of "Israeli dominion"? i.e., do we know if "alien" refers to people who're living in an Israeli kingdom or if there's a broader scope?

I can't think of an example of a Jew being prosecuted for killing a non-Jew, but I haven't thought about it too carefully.
I think it was kind of assumed that if you're outside of the Kingdom of Israel (Or Judah, later on) then you followed the local laws, which I imagine generally prohibited murder. ;)

I mean, I doubt that we have laws saying "It's wrong to go to France and shoot people" because if you do that, the French will take care of it - it's a local crime and a local issue. Remember, this was written specifically for the Jews, so it's perfectly reasonable that the laws given should be understood in that context.
 
We have a gazillion examples of Jews killing non-Jews and getting off scot-free, though. 'Tis why I'm asking for a counter-example. Heck, do we even have an example of a Jew being punished for killing a non-Jew (according to Jewish law) when they're occupied?
 
We have a gazillion examples of Jews killing non-Jews and getting off scot-free, though. 'Tis why I'm asking for a counter-example. Heck, do we even have an example of a Jew being punished for killing a non-Jew (according to Jewish law) when they're occupied?
In wars and things, yeah, of course. We also have tons of examples of Jews killing other Jews during wars and "getting off scot free." War was different then, and it is different today.

I'm not sure we even have an example of a Jew killing a non-Jew when it wasn't wartime or something similar. Do you know where these examples are?
 
Oh, as a complete aside, I'm not ascribing any of this interpretation onto current Christian values. I'm more interested in how the Jews of the time treated it.

Well, 'in warfare' is tough to parse. There are many instances of stabbing babies. Do we want to allow the 'in war' exemption?

Samson seems to leap out as a pretty good example of my point (he kills 30 people at random, iirc)
 
I guess I'm just being nitpicky, but does any one else consider this to be the fifth commmandment?
 
Oh, as a complete aside, I'm not ascribing any of this interpretation onto current Christian values. I'm more interested in how the Jews of the time treated it.

Well, 'in warfare' is tough to parse. There are many instances of stabbing babies. Do we want to allow the 'in war' exemption?

Samson seems to leap out as a pretty good example of my point (he kills 30 people at random, iirc)
I dunno. I guess that would depend on whether it was during a war, and all. Like it or not, warfare was commonly pretty brutal during that time period, and it wasn't at all unusual for entire communities or nations to be destroyed.

I'm pretty sure Samson killed 30 random Philistines. Philistia and Israel were pretty much perpetually at war during this time period. If I'm thinking of the right incident, this would come closer to a cross border raid during a time of war than murder, in a legal sense.

I guess I'm just being nitpicky, but does any one else consider this to be the fifth commmandment?
Wiki says the Catholics and Lutherans have a slightly different numbering system....huh. I learned something today. :)
 
Christians believe that God does not designate any one sin as better or worse than any other. A sin is simply anything that is not holy. It doesn't make any difference whether one kills, robs, lies, or simply gets angry. All are sins that must be forgiven through the grace of God. Jesus taught us that it is impossible for a human to live according to God's law. That is why He accepted the punishment which we all deserve. Even after we accept God's gift of forgiveness and accept Jesus as our Lord, we continue to be sinners, but we are sinners that are saved. This doesn't mean that, we should, as Paul said, "fill the cup of grace to overflowing" with our sins, but we should do our best to grow in Christ and lead the best possible lives that we can.

Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Paul said that a Christian is obligated to obey the civil law. IMO this reconciles a soldier's duty to defend his country.

I think Robert E. Lee said it best, "We must do our duty as we understand it. The rest is in God's hands."
 
If the "civil law" made it illegal to be Christians, would all Christians have to say to themselves "well shucks, my right wing political hack of a pastor said we should live according to the law, so let's all give up being Christian"? Of course not. It's patently obvious that whenever the law of God (ie. killing during war or any other time for that matter is forbidden) conflicts with the law of the land (ie. you must fight in a war), you choose to obey the law of God.

In any event the United States Armed Forces are all volunteer, so there is no reason for them to join and forsake their Christian duties in doing so.
 
If the "civil law" made it illegal to be Christians, would all Christians have to say to themselves "well shucks, my right wing political hack of a pastor said we should live according to the law, so let's all give up being Christian"? Of course not. It's patently obvious that whenever the law of God (ie. killing during war or any other time for that matter is forbidden) conflicts with the law of the land (ie. you must fight in a war), you choose to obey the law of God.

In any event the United States Armed Forces are all volunteer, so there is no reason for them to join and forsake their Christian duties in doing so.

Especially since you dont have to 'forsake' your christian duties by being a soldier. :rolleyes:
 
Christians believe that God does not designate any one sin as better or worse than any other. A sin is simply anything that is not holy. It doesn't make any difference whether one kills, robs, lies, or simply gets angry. All are sins that must be forgiven through the grace of God. Jesus taught us that it is impossible for a human to live according to God's law. That is why He accepted the punishment which we all deserve. Even after we accept God's gift of forgiveness and accept Jesus as our Lord, we continue to be sinners, but we are sinners that are saved. This doesn't mean that, we should, as Paul said, "fill the cup of grace to overflowing" with our sins, but we should do our best to grow in Christ and lead the best possible lives that we can.

Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Paul said that a Christian is obligated to obey the civil law. IMO this reconciles a soldier's duty to defend his country.

I think Robert E. Lee said it best, "We must do our duty as we understand it. The rest is in God's hands."
Not quite. All sins separate us from God, that's true. However, I don't think all sins are equally serious - telling someone that their sweater looks nice (When it's actually hideous) is not morally on part with eating babies. :p All sins need to be forgiven by God and none are good, but I don't think it's accurate to say that they are all equally wrong or equally serious, and I'd be hard pressed to come up with any reason why that would be so.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, or something....because I honestly can't imagine anyone actually living their life that way. Because everyone sins.

If the "civil law" made it illegal to be Christians, would all Christians have to say to themselves "well shucks, my right wing political hack of a pastor said we should live according to the law, so let's all give up being Christian"? Of course not. It's patently obvious that whenever the law of God (ie. killing during war or any other time for that matter is forbidden) conflicts with the law of the land (ie. you must fight in a war), you choose to obey the law of God.

In any event the United States Armed Forces are all volunteer, so there is no reason for them to join and forsake their Christian duties in doing so.
First, I agree that God's law does overrule civil law for Christians. If the law commands me to sin, then I must refuse to obey it, and accept the consequences of doing so. However, killing in and of itself is not sinful, as it depends on the circumstances. (And if you're going to insist that it is always sinful, then could you please make an actual argument, based on Scripture as to why that is?) And finally....last I heard, you were thinking of joining the Canadian army. What, ours is an army of imperialism, and yours is just one of love and friendship and puppybowls? ;)
 
I dunno. I guess that would depend on whether it was during a war, and all. Like it or not, warfare was commonly pretty brutal during that time period, and it wasn't at all unusual for entire communities or nations to be destroyed.
Yeah, war was brutal. It still really is.
And jewish law seems to be okay with stabbing babies, even with their Ten Commandments.
I'm pretty sure Samson killed 30 random Philistines. Philistia and Israel were pretty much perpetually at war during this time period. If I'm thinking of the right incident, this would come closer to a cross border raid during a time of war than murder, in a legal sense.
Doesn't this seem, also, like a bit of post-hoc justification? The Israelis were conquered in that period, I think.

I mean, the commandment seems to apply to any aliens within Israel, when Israel has dominion. But (like I said) non-Israelis were open game.

I've provided an example of where it seemed to be okay to kill non-Israelis. So I'd like to see if there are any examples where it wasn't okay.

But it this way, is there anything in the OT Bible which could definitively be used to condemn Israel if they dropped cluster bombs on a Syrian hospital? Or if some nutcase went over, killed thirty guys, and took their clothes?
 
Yeah, war was brutal. It still really is.
And jewish law seems to be okay with stabbing babies, even with their Ten Commandments.
Killing during warfare was, and is allowed. They merely took that a little further than we do today. I'm not sure what you expect me to say, really....

Doesn't this seem, also, like a bit of post-hoc justification? The Israelis were conquered in that period, I think.

I mean, the commandment seems to apply to any aliens within Israel, when Israel has dominion. But (like I said) non-Israelis were open game.

I've provided an example of where it seemed to be okay to kill non-Israelis. So I'd like to see if there are any examples where it wasn't okay.
Not really, no. The Israeli's really were at war with the Philistines pretty much constantly - both books of Samuel, for instance, are pretty much chock full of constant battles between Philistia and Israel.

I provided a commandment saying don't kill non-Jews in Jewish lands. Outside of Jewish lands, it's legally a separate (Although morally similar) matter: either either it is a time of war, or a non-military murder. If it's in war, then it's legally permissible; if it isn't, then presumably the locals would deal with the Jew who killed one of their own. I'm not sure what you expect me to say - as long as it is, the Bible only has so much stuff in it. I don't know why they would include a story about something so obvious.

But it this way, is there anything in the OT Bible which could definitively be used to condemn Israel if they dropped cluster bombs on a Syrian hospital? Or if some nutcase went over, killed thirty guys, and took their clothes?
Today? I'd say yes, seeing as how we now define destroying hospitals as outside of the rules of war. (Unless it is being used as a military post, and destroying it would guarantee a proportionally greater military objective than the cost of civilian life) And Israel has a professional army now - random nutcases aren't entitled to act as soldiers for Israel. Samson, though, was a judge; effectively a tribal leader. He was a military man, and thus it really was his business to kill the enemy, among other duties. I really don't think you're being fair here.

Not to mention the fact that modern day Israel is a secular state. Meaning that its policy shouldn't be determined by religious texts.
 
So would you say our current prohibition against killing babies during wartime is more or less moral than the morals shown by the Israeli history?
 
So would you say our current prohibition against killing babies during wartime is more or less moral than the morals shown by the Israeli history?
More so. I just think applying modern rules of warfare (Like modern dress codes or diet) and applying it to ancient societies is really kind of pointless.

And there was a ninjaedit, if you see it. :)
 
In terms of preventing violence on a massive scale, a major point I support is that a pacifist movement should erupt when there is no war in sight for the near future, to stop a war from ever occuring.

Wow, you really are a hippie. :lol:
 
Surely you are aware that Christians established a new Covenant with God.
Irrelevent. God's law is meant to be permanent - any accusation of "this doesn't apply any more" is false. Noah's laws apply to everyone and the majority of them are repeated in the 10 commandments anyway. Both covenants would be in force.
 
Irrelevent. God's law is meant to be permanent - any accusation of "this doesn't apply any more" is false. Noah's laws apply to everyone and the majority of them are repeated in the 10 commandments anyway. Both covenants would be in force.

But we are no longer subject to some of the laws, such as the prohibitions on pork, or meat with dairy. It is a new Covenant.

The closest I can come to an answer to this very confusing and IMO very important question is here. And I feel this is correct and true because of what Jesus told and gave to Simon Peter.
 
Not quite. All sins separate us from God, that's true. However, I don't think all sins are equally serious - telling someone that their sweater looks nice (When it's actually hideous) is not morally on part with eating babies. :p All sins need to be forgiven by God and none are good, but I don't think it's accurate to say that they are all equally wrong or equally serious, and I'd be hard pressed to come up with any reason why that would be so.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, or something....because I honestly can't imagine anyone actually living their life that way. Because everyone sins.

Good point. I did not make myself very clear. God doesn't qualify one sin as better or worse than another, but man does and should. It is how we maintain order. Only a sociopath would be unable to tell the difference between an ax murderer and some one who cheats on his taxes.
 
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