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Citizenship vs. hijabs/niqabs/burkas. Fight!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Puck Nutty, Feb 22, 2015.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    So providing reasonable privacy for ID checks, where it is not cumbersome to the organization, no problem. Face covered in large groups of people who have no more real need to see a face than they have to see a vagina but may be curious, no problem.

    Glad we got that settled. This Canada seems a reasonable place. :goodjob:
     
  2. Recon Rover

    Recon Rover Warlord

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    You would have to appreciate the delicate situation in Canada where there is a french population that historically feels that its culture is under threat from outside influences to understand why the Conservative government decision to appeal the federal court ruling is not only popular in the minds of many Canadians but essential to national unity.
     
  3. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Sure - my initial complaint was allowing people to participate in the swearing in ceremony with their face covered, anyway, and nothing else.

    My opinion remains that somebody wanting to cover their face while participating in this ceremony is not sending a message that they are ready to join Canadian society - so I am against them being allowed to do so.

    It's the same as if they had failed the test you need to take beforehand - where your knowledge of certain Canadian matters is tested.
     
  4. Recon Rover

    Recon Rover Warlord

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    I forgot to point out that this is going to bug people as well.

    The fact that she would only be willing to show her face to another female is really going to send the message to people that this is less and less about a something you wear and more about your disagreements with an equal secular society.
     
  5. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    I think that would be true if and only if they didn't cover their face as a matter of routine. You wouldn't make somebody who wore a mask because of an uncomfortable and embarrassing disfigurement take that mask off. If there's an identity question the person's identity can always be verified in private beforehand, or by other means, such as fingerprints.
     
  6. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    Well, the assertion is more that somebody who wants to cover their face due to a religious reason, and is unwilling to show it for reasons other than identification during their ceremony, is somebody that the posters don't want as their countrymen, and somebody that the posters hope their country will prevent from becoming citizens.
     
  7. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    ^^ The reason doesn't really matter - I would respond in the exact same fashion no matter what the rationale for covering the face was, except for medical exceptions:

    Of course not - I'm not a monster.

    If you can't take off your face covering for medical reasons - hey, that means it isn't coming off. We'll deal with it, not a problem.
     
  8. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    Emphasis mine - I think you've got it.

    I might venture that the feeling that a devout Muslim woman would experience from taking her veil off might not be dissimilar from that of a war veteran removing a patch to reveal a lost eye.
     
  9. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    No.. again, the reason doesn't matter, unless it's a medical emergency.

    You can try to make me into someone who is anti-religion all you want, but it doesn't make it so. My position is clear - it's up to you whether you want to make up things to attach to it or not.

    Let's also compare my position to the Prime Minister's - he doesn't want women wearing a hair covering during such ceremonies either. I disagree with his opinion on that 100%.
     
  10. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    You just literally said that the reason doesn't matter unless it's a reason you think is fine. I'm finding this confusing, honestly. You are saying something very clearly, then saying that's not it.
     
  11. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    I think the ceremony should be conducted in the nude, so you can get a real appraisal of the new citizens.
     
  12. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    With a nude mayor (or whatever official) as well?

    Look. Let's face it. Some people just look better with their clothes on. And besides if you're interested in facial identification, being in the nude isn't going to help anything.
     
  13. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    That's ridiculous. Unless they worship the god of crime or skiing and the ceremony takes place at Whistler or Mt. Norquay in the middle of winter and the "dudes" are affiliated with Amaruk.

    We are not a perfect country. There are some horribly bigoted people here, and part of the problem is that we have trouble getting along with each other, let alone getting along with new Canadians.

    But multiculturalism is a part of what this country stands for. Most people accept it to a great extent, but I suspect that there is sometimes one or two issues that make a wall that they have trouble breaking down. Examples include this niqab issue, or the issue of Sikh RCMP officers wearing turbans on duty or Sikhs being allowed inside a Legion while wearing a turban.

    A common question is this: If I wanted to immigrate to Saudi Arabia and go out among the populace, I'd damn well better cover up, right? Since that's what is expected of females there...

    This is an election year, and every party needs the Quebec vote.

    Hm. Does Stephen Harper expect Sikh males to remove their turbans for the ceremony?
     
  14. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    The removal of the facial covering during the ceremony isn't helping anything in terms of identification. That's already been taken care of. Besides, if identification is the real issue nude is way better. As far as I know no two vaginas look alike.
     
  15. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Do quote this.

    The reason doesn't matter, unless it's a medical consideration that physically prevents someone from complying.
     
  16. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    There's a line, I think that has to be drawn between countries not bending their laws for immigrants, and being respectful of other people's values and beliefs. I don't see why this is where the line has to be drawn.
     
  17. IglooDame

    IglooDame Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I'm putting the emphasis on acceptance on the Canadian state because in my opinion, that should be literally the lowest standard of acceptance the prospective immigrant should have to meet. And yeah, I may have a slightly different perspective here in the US, sure. "Give me your tired, your poor, your niqab'ed masses yearning to breathe free" and all that. And the crux of our disagreement may be that you see the face covering primarily as avoiding openness. I see the face covering as a sign of religious dedication, and freedom of religion is something the government should be defending, not chipping at.



    Out of curiosity, I looked up the following.
    Here's the US citizenship requirements:
    • You already have a green card
    • You are at least 18 years old.
    • You have lived in the U.S. lawfully as a permanent resident for at least five years unless you are a spouse of a U.S. citizen, refugee, or received your green card through political asylum.
    • During those five years, you have been physically present in the U.S. for at least half of the time.
    • You have not spent more than one year at a time outside the U.S.
    • You have not established a primary home in another country.
    • You have lived in the state or district where you are filing your application for at least three months.
    • You have "good moral character".
    • You can read, write and speak English.
    • You can pass a test about U.S. history and government.
    • You will swear that you believe in the principles of the U.S. Constitution and will be loyal to the U.S.

    And this, for Canada:
    You must be 18+ (children can also apply but the below gets adjusted)
    You must have permanent resident (PR) status in Canada.
    You must have resided in Canada for at least three years (1,095 days) in the past four years before you apply.
    Canada has two official languages—English and French. To become a citizen, you must show that you have adequate knowledge of one of these languages. In general, this means you can:
    • take part in short, everyday conversations about common topics;
    • understand simple instructions, questions and directions;
    • use basic grammar, including simple structures and tenses; and
    • show that you know enough common words and phrases to answer questions and express yourself.

    Criminal history (prohibitions), you cannot become a citizen if you:
    • have been convicted of an indictable (criminal) offence or an offence under the Citizenship Act in the three years before you apply,
    • are currently charged with an offence under the Citizenship Act,
    • are in prison, on parole or on probation,
    • are under a removal order (Canadian officials have ordered you to leave Canada),
    • are being investigated for, are charged with, or have been convicted of a war crime or a crime against humanity, or
    • have had your Canadian citizenship taken away in the past five years.

    To become a citizen, you must understand the rights, responsibilities and privileges of citizenship, such as voting in elections and obeying the law. You must also show you understand Canada’s:
    • history,
    • values,
    • institutions and
    • symbols.
     
  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    That is sort of for Canada as a whole to decide, wouldn't you say? We have no obligation to let anyone into the country and no obligation to grant anyone Canadian citizenship. Canada has every right to put into place conditions both on people immigrating here, as well as people becoming Canadian citizens. In fact, every single country on the planet does this.

    So let me correct you (if you don't mind) - the standards for new immigrants and new Citizens are for Canada to decide - not for the immigrants to decide.

    Secondly, both parties have to make certain concessions during the process - but most importantly the immigrant has to show that they are willing to integrate into Canadian society.
     
  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    Yet you agreed with Flying Pig and said a "deformitydisfigurement" covering mask would be acceptable, then implied you would be a monster if you didn't think so. Flying Pig was pretty quick on the uptake in equating the concern about outward appearance being a preference, perhaps one extremely deeply held, but a preference nonetheless. It wouldn't be a "medical consideration" unless you're shoehorning it in as one since you find it more palatable.
     
  20. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Where would you draw it, then?

    Is it OK for a host country to demand monogamy but not FGM, for instance? Or vice versa?

    Is it OK for a host country to demand that you speak the dominant language but not subscribe to the dominant religion?

    How do you feel about transnational loyalties like the Muslim brotherhood or international Zionism? Is it OK for a prospective citizen to have divided loyalties or not?
     

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