Citizenship vs. hijabs/niqabs/burkas. Fight!

If she is willing to uncover her face during those very infrequently occurring scenarios, then I have 0 problem with people walking around through Canada with their faces covered.

So providing reasonable privacy for ID checks, where it is not cumbersome to the organization, no problem. Face covered in large groups of people who have no more real need to see a face than they have to see a vagina but may be curious, no problem.

Glad we got that settled. This Canada seems a reasonable place. :goodjob:
 
Warpus, I think this response is one you would do well to consider. Your "well, asking you to uncover your face is no big deal really" amounts to you getting to determine what is or isn't a big deal to someone else. I might personally think that nudity is 'no big deal', but that doesn't mean I would be surprised that other people thought differently if I don't get dressed before I go out to get the paper...or that it is somehow incumbent upon them to 'just get over it'.

If this business of facial covering is really 'no big deal' how is making her remove it justifiable? She has already acknowledged the identification requirements and accepted them. :dunno:

You would have to appreciate the delicate situation in Canada where there is a french population that historically feels that its culture is under threat from outside influences to understand why the Conservative government decision to appeal the federal court ruling is not only popular in the minds of many Canadians but essential to national unity.
 
So providing reasonable privacy for ID checks, where it is not cumbersome to the organization, no problem. Face covered in large groups of people who have no more real need to see a face than they have to see a vagina but may be curious, no problem.

Sure - my initial complaint was allowing people to participate in the swearing in ceremony with their face covered, anyway, and nothing else.

My opinion remains that somebody wanting to cover their face while participating in this ceremony is not sending a message that they are ready to join Canadian society - so I am against them being allowed to do so.

It's the same as if they had failed the test you need to take beforehand - where your knowledge of certain Canadian matters is tested.
 
This particular case applies to just one woman, who by all accounts, was willing to show her face to a female officer in private for ID purposes.

I forgot to point out that this is going to bug people as well.

The fact that she would only be willing to show her face to another female is really going to send the message to people that this is less and less about a something you wear and more about your disagreements with an equal secular society.
 
My opinion remains that somebody wanting to cover their face while participating in this ceremony is not sending a message that they are ready to join Canadian society - so I am against them being allowed to do so.

I think that would be true if and only if they didn't cover their face as a matter of routine. You wouldn't make somebody who wore a mask because of an uncomfortable and embarrassing disfigurement take that mask off. If there's an identity question the person's identity can always be verified in private beforehand, or by other means, such as fingerprints.
 
Well, the assertion is more that somebody who wants to cover their face due to a religious reason, and is unwilling to show it for reasons other than identification during their ceremony, is somebody that the posters don't want as their countrymen, and somebody that the posters hope their country will prevent from becoming citizens.
 
^^ The reason doesn't really matter - I would respond in the exact same fashion no matter what the rationale for covering the face was, except for medical exceptions:

You wouldn't make somebody who wore a mask because of an uncomfortable and embarrassing disfigurement take that mask off.

Of course not - I'm not a monster.

If you can't take off your face covering for medical reasons - hey, that means it isn't coming off. We'll deal with it, not a problem.
 
Well, the assertion is more that somebody who wants to cover their face due to a religious reason, and is unwilling to show it for reasons other than identification during their ceremony, is somebody that the posters don't want as their countrymen, and somebody that the posters hope their country will prevent from becoming citizens.

Emphasis mine - I think you've got it.

Of course not - I'm not a monster.

If you can't take off your face covering for medical reasons - hey, that means it isn't coming off. We'll deal with it, not a problem.

I might venture that the feeling that a devout Muslim woman would experience from taking her veil off might not be dissimilar from that of a war veteran removing a patch to reveal a lost eye.
 
No.. again, the reason doesn't matter, unless it's a medical emergency.

You can try to make me into someone who is anti-religion all you want, but it doesn't make it so. My position is clear - it's up to you whether you want to make up things to attach to it or not.

Let's also compare my position to the Prime Minister's - he doesn't want women wearing a hair covering during such ceremonies either. I disagree with his opinion on that 100%.
 
You just literally said that the reason doesn't matter unless it's a reason you think is fine. I'm finding this confusing, honestly. You are saying something very clearly, then saying that's not it.
 
I think the ceremony should be conducted in the nude, so you can get a real appraisal of the new citizens.
 
With a nude mayor (or whatever official) as well?

Look. Let's face it. Some people just look better with their clothes on. And besides if you're interested in facial identification, being in the nude isn't going to help anything.
 
So then for citizenship we should accept dudes in ski masks who'll only take off their balaclavas in the presence of males.
That's ridiculous. Unless they worship the god of crime or skiing and the ceremony takes place at Whistler or Mt. Norquay in the middle of winter and the "dudes" are affiliated with Amaruk.

Mutual respect is very easy, if you're both very similar, eh? But inject significant differences, and the mutual respect becomes much more difficult. I thought Canadian society was big on tolerance, and embracing differences? Or am I thinking of the US, instead?
We are not a perfect country. There are some horribly bigoted people here, and part of the problem is that we have trouble getting along with each other, let alone getting along with new Canadians.

But multiculturalism is a part of what this country stands for. Most people accept it to a great extent, but I suspect that there is sometimes one or two issues that make a wall that they have trouble breaking down. Examples include this niqab issue, or the issue of Sikh RCMP officers wearing turbans on duty or Sikhs being allowed inside a Legion while wearing a turban.

Tolerance yes, but not tolerance of everything.

Embracing differences yes, but not all differences. If all differences in the world were for some reason equal then you'd have a point.. but..

Why are you putting the emphasis on acceptance on the Canadian state here? Out of the two parties involved here, it is the immigrant who should be looking to accept the cultural norms of the new country moreso than the Canadian state should be looking to bend its laws and norms to the wishes of the immigrant. It does go both ways, but the immigrant is the one who decided to come here - more of this burden thus lies on his/her shoulders.
A common question is this: If I wanted to immigrate to Saudi Arabia and go out among the populace, I'd damn well better cover up, right? Since that's what is expected of females there...

You would have to appreciate the delicate situation in Canada where there is a french population that historically feels that its culture is under threat from outside influences to understand why the Conservative government decision to appeal the federal court ruling is not only popular in the minds of many Canadians but essential to national unity.
This is an election year, and every party needs the Quebec vote.

No.. again, the reason doesn't matter, unless it's a medical emergency.

You can try to make me into someone who is anti-religion all you want, but it doesn't make it so. My position is clear - it's up to you whether you want to make up things to attach to it or not.

Let's also compare my position to the Prime Minister's - he doesn't want women wearing a hair covering during such ceremonies either. I disagree with his opinion on that 100%.
Hm. Does Stephen Harper expect Sikh males to remove their turbans for the ceremony?
 
With a nude mayor (or whatever official) as well?

Look. Let's face it. Some people just look better with their clothes on. And besides if you're interested in facial identification, being in the nude isn't going to help anything.

The removal of the facial covering during the ceremony isn't helping anything in terms of identification. That's already been taken care of. Besides, if identification is the real issue nude is way better. As far as I know no two vaginas look alike.
 
There's a line, I think that has to be drawn between countries not bending their laws for immigrants, and being respectful of other people's values and beliefs. I don't see why this is where the line has to be drawn.
 
Tolerance yes, but not tolerance of everything.

Embracing differences yes, but not all differences. If all differences in the world were for some reason equal then you'd have a point.. but..

Why are you putting the emphasis on acceptance on the Canadian state here? Out of the two parties involved here, it is the immigrant who should be looking to accept the cultural norms of the new country moreso than the Canadian state should be looking to bend its laws and norms to the wishes of the immigrant. It does go both ways, but the immigrant is the one who decided to come here - more of this burden thus lies on his/her shoulders.

I'm putting the emphasis on acceptance on the Canadian state because in my opinion, that should be literally the lowest standard of acceptance the prospective immigrant should have to meet. And yeah, I may have a slightly different perspective here in the US, sure. "Give me your tired, your poor, your niqab'ed masses yearning to breathe free" and all that. And the crux of our disagreement may be that you see the face covering primarily as avoiding openness. I see the face covering as a sign of religious dedication, and freedom of religion is something the government should be defending, not chipping at.



Out of curiosity, I looked up the following.
Here's the US citizenship requirements:
  • You already have a green card
  • You are at least 18 years old.
  • You have lived in the U.S. lawfully as a permanent resident for at least five years unless you are a spouse of a U.S. citizen, refugee, or received your green card through political asylum.
  • During those five years, you have been physically present in the U.S. for at least half of the time.
  • You have not spent more than one year at a time outside the U.S.
  • You have not established a primary home in another country.
  • You have lived in the state or district where you are filing your application for at least three months.
  • You have "good moral character".
  • You can read, write and speak English.
  • You can pass a test about U.S. history and government.
  • You will swear that you believe in the principles of the U.S. Constitution and will be loyal to the U.S.

And this, for Canada:
You must be 18+ (children can also apply but the below gets adjusted)
You must have permanent resident (PR) status in Canada.
You must have resided in Canada for at least three years (1,095 days) in the past four years before you apply.
Canada has two official languages—English and French. To become a citizen, you must show that you have adequate knowledge of one of these languages. In general, this means you can:
  • take part in short, everyday conversations about common topics;
  • understand simple instructions, questions and directions;
  • use basic grammar, including simple structures and tenses; and
  • show that you know enough common words and phrases to answer questions and express yourself.

Criminal history (prohibitions), you cannot become a citizen if you:
  • have been convicted of an indictable (criminal) offence or an offence under the Citizenship Act in the three years before you apply,
  • are currently charged with an offence under the Citizenship Act,
  • are in prison, on parole or on probation,
  • are under a removal order (Canadian officials have ordered you to leave Canada),
  • are being investigated for, are charged with, or have been convicted of a war crime or a crime against humanity, or
  • have had your Canadian citizenship taken away in the past five years.

To become a citizen, you must understand the rights, responsibilities and privileges of citizenship, such as voting in elections and obeying the law. You must also show you understand Canada’s:
  • history,
  • values,
  • institutions and
  • symbols.
 
IglooDude said:
I'm putting the emphasis on acceptance on the Canadian state because in my opinion, that should be literally the lowest standard of acceptance the prospective immigrant should have to meet.

That is sort of for Canada as a whole to decide, wouldn't you say? We have no obligation to let anyone into the country and no obligation to grant anyone Canadian citizenship. Canada has every right to put into place conditions both on people immigrating here, as well as people becoming Canadian citizens. In fact, every single country on the planet does this.

So let me correct you (if you don't mind) - the standards for new immigrants and new Citizens are for Canada to decide - not for the immigrants to decide.

Secondly, both parties have to make certain concessions during the process - but most importantly the immigrant has to show that they are willing to integrate into Canadian society.
 
The reason doesn't matter, unless it's a medical consideration that physically prevents someone from complying.

Yet you agreed with Flying Pig and said a "deformitydisfigurement" covering mask would be acceptable, then implied you would be a monster if you didn't think so. Flying Pig was pretty quick on the uptake in equating the concern about outward appearance being a preference, perhaps one extremely deeply held, but a preference nonetheless. It wouldn't be a "medical consideration" unless you're shoehorning it in as one since you find it more palatable.
 
There's a line, I think that has to be drawn between countries not bending their laws for immigrants, and being respectful of other people's values and beliefs. I don't see why this is where the line has to be drawn.

Where would you draw it, then?

Is it OK for a host country to demand monogamy but not FGM, for instance? Or vice versa?

Is it OK for a host country to demand that you speak the dominant language but not subscribe to the dominant religion?

How do you feel about transnational loyalties like the Muslim brotherhood or international Zionism? Is it OK for a prospective citizen to have divided loyalties or not?
 
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