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City 7 (The City of God)

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sommerswerd, Jun 20, 2009.

  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    This the land where our seventh city will be...

    We have a settler currently under construction, so we need to get the discussion going on the placement of this city.

    We need ideas for location and a name for the city. The city will probably be in the Syr Darya valley, but where? Let's get some heated arguments going!:goodjob:
     
  2. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    This is a complete no-brainer. It needs to be relatively easy to defend and as far to the north as possible. So, it should go to the SW of the Wheat. Additionally, the first thing we should do is to chop the trees to the west between the new city and the river. The real question in my mind is when we should build it because it will cost a lot as it is a long way from the capital. Someone needs to work this out.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I think the best location is the forested hill 2 squares East of the "Syr Darya River" sign in the screenshot. This square will maximize square usage while avoiding conflict with other citys' BFCs. We will need a border pop to get the wheat, but we have two holy cities at this poit so maybe religion will spread there automatically...
     
  4. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    If this were not a border city with our enemy I might agree with you but I think defensive considerations should come first and we need to get this right. If this city falls it will likely open up our whole empire. It will be much easier to defend with the grassland and plains immediatelyto the north.
     
  5. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Yeah, I was previously set on the spot Sommers is talking about (ie where the Chariot is in the screenshot.

    But with SANCTA having Lbows they could sit on the hill next to us and be difficult to shift. Building 1SW of the Wheat is a better defensive spot, although we do miss out on the river connection.
     
  6. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I agree that it would be easier to counter-attack SANCTA if they approach the city from the open plains in the N, NW or NE, but why would they do that? They could easily just move their units on to the desert hill on the East side of the 1SW spot, right?

    Also, with respect to city 7 being a border city, if we concede that city 7 will be a border city we have already lost... right? We should be building the attack force that will storm and capture/raze Angle before SANCTA has a chance to dig in, connect/mine the copper and start sending more military our way. Their army must be out of gas because they are offering peace. This means that they need some time to reinforce / resupply.

    At any rate, whether we build on the forest hill or the desert hill, SANCTA still has the same two attack/approach options:
    1. Desert Hill
    2. Forest grassland

    Both squares will be next to our city whether we build on forest hill or desert hill, and we will be building the city on the hill (defense bonus) either way, so the cities seem equal (in terms of defense).
     
  7. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    It is a question first, of seeing SANCTA earlier and second, giving them less options. Whether we like it or not it is our northern border at the moment. I agree that we should ideally attack Angle and once we have a spy assess the situation we will know if this is possible. There are several possible motives for the peace offer; not that least being that they want Aesthetics. As to the state and disposition of their forces, I have no idea.
     
  8. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    I agree with Sommers and prefer the original location.
     
  9. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Given the difference of opinion about the building site and Bolkonski's point that the new city will have high maintenance why don't we hold off a bit on building it? Or is it important to plug that gap with our culture?

    EDIT: Also, SW of the wheat is easier to defend, but that doesn't mean we cannot defend the original spot. Any assessment on whether we can adequately defend the better city site?
     
  10. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I think we should build it SW of the wheat. If we do culture bomb this city we want it as north as possible. This location also gives us another forest to chop in the other proposed building square.

    City benefits: fog bust the valley, keep out santca spys, a defensive point in case Sancta decides to move their armies south, facilitates healing our wounded units, and denies Sancta the advantage of heeling in neutral lands if they move south.

    City Cons - increased maintenance. How much does it increase maintenance? Also we can chop a courthouse in the city fairly quickly - after all we need to cut down those forests anyway. How long will this take and how much does that reduce maintenance.

    We will not be capturing Angle anytime soon now that Sancta has longbows. HOlding off on building the city so that we can attack Sancta 1st is not going to work. We will end up building the city anyway.

    The question is if the maintenance is worth it. I think yes.
     
  11. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Damnrunner-

    There are more cons to the northern position than just maintenance:

    1. Not adjacent to the river- no health bonus, no levee, etc.
    2. Productive tiles to the south would fall outside of any city radius.

    And all the pros you list are exactly the same for the original city site. And as Sommers pointed out, both sites are exactly the same defensively.
     
  12. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    We can get the settler to the plains forstest in 2 turns, so we have 3 turns to decide this - shall we just have as straw poll quickly to see which way people are leaning?

    I'm open to either one but had previously been planning on the forest hill.
     
  13. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    It would be a bad mistake to settle on the desert hill.

    First we lose the 2 hammer on city tile
    Second we lose river
    Third we lose some good tile to the south which are not replaced
    Fourth and most important we are one step closer to Sancta and one step further from reinforcements...guys we are not playing against the ai here, building on the plains hill is already abit far, going further far is just stupid.
     
  14. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    My concern with building a tile further south is that it gives Sancta more opportunities to camp out with longbows on hills bordering the city. If we build to the south we are going to have to defend the two hills north of the city anyway which will result in the same amount of over extension. For either city we want to engage Sancta on the open terrain north of those hills - so we will be just as over extended in either case.

    In fact - if we settle to the north we will have an easier time fighting within our own borders which is advantageous.

    The downside with the northern hill is no river access and we do not 100% optimize our land usage. I think we pick the city that we can best defend - not what will optimize land usage in the distant future. We are at war now. As to the river - the +2 health is nice, but it wont be an issue for a long time. The lack a levee is a problem but again that will not come up until steam engine which is a very long ways off. I think building to the north will increase our likelihood of survival to get steam engines.

    The northern hill also lets us do one more forest chop - which will also be useful.
     
  15. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I've decided to support the better city site (the forested hill) rather than the better defensible position (the desert hill). The defense position is inviting under the circumstances but if we want to win we have to assume we will prevail against SANCTA and will want the better site in the future. If we don't survive then it doesn't really matter where we settle and I really doubt our survival depends on where we put this next city.

    We do need to plan on defending those northern hills but we need to take Angle so we need a large army anyway.
     
  16. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    These are good points especially the one about longbows on hills, which with the appropriate promotion would be well nigh impossible to shift. The risks of a long draining siege would be high.

    River access is a non-issue. Tiles within a city boundary bordering a river will get a production bonus from a levee.
     
  17. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    An alternative, if we are divided on this issue, would be to hold off building the city until we have assessed the situation with our spy If we build on the southern (forested) hill I would want longbowmen defending the northern hills, which means we would need Feudalism before founding the city..
     
  18. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    I don't know why you think that if we settle on the desert hill it will prevent Sancta from putting longbows on the hills around the city and if we settle in the plains hill it will be easier for them to do so.

    If we cannot kill the longbows on flat ground the momment they enter our borders then we are in trouble anyway...that is why we have catas...atack with cata first finish with axes.

    A better defended city is one that is closer to reinforcements and further from the enemy...not the opposite.
     
  19. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    I don't think so. A city can't build a levee if it is not actually adjacent to a river. Just like a city can't build a lighthouse if it isn't adjacent to a coast.

    Regarding defensibility: both proposed locations are adjacent to exactly 4 hills. If you think that SANCTA will not put a stack on a hill because it is to the south of our city you are mistaken. Thinking linearly is our natural default but it doesn't apply to CIV- think maneuver! :)
     
  20. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    Agreed, but we are at cross purposes. It is harder to get behind the city if it is further to the north. I am sure you will agree that the first line of defence, whether or not the city is there, will be the northern hills and forest. So, if we want to build the city early I suggest we go further to the north. If we hold off until we have enough units to defend the hills we could consider the south. Much will depend on what our spy finds in Angle and to the west of Angle.
     

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