City 7 (The City of God)

[Kaleb]

Btw the northern spot is a plains hill not desert hill.

I don't like the idea of longbows coming in to sit on a hill but there are 2 hill spots to the north and they'll be able to get to 1 if they can get to both.

What would really worry me with the northern spot is them getting an lbow behind the city to block off reinforcements.

I vote for the original spot.

 

[damnrunner]

The point raised about Sancta being able to just move to the southern hills is exactly my point – settling on the northern hill forces them to do that – move south. At which point we can force them to take additional attrition as they have to move through our territory for a greater number of turns. Also they will be reluctant to do so unless they have a spy in our land to know that those southern hills are in fact accessible. And since we expect to have superior esp – this can easily be denied.

The point that if Sancta can get to one of the northern hills they can get to both is also weak. If we settle on the northern hill we keep a stack of units in both northern hill tiles. If we settle on the southern hill we have to keep units on both northern hills and in our city. That results in our forces being more split up. Consequently when Sancta does attack we will likely have to move more of our defenders around which will result in losing the 25% fortification bonus we can expect to receive.

 

[Bolkonski]

Btw the northern spot is a plains hill not desert hill.

I don't like the idea of longbows coming in to sit on a hill but there are 2 hill spots to the north and they'll be able to get to 1 if they can get to both.

What would really worry me with the northern spot is them getting an lbow behind the city to block off reinforcements.

I vote for the original spot.

Wherever the city is if SANCTA have Longbowmen on the hills it would be disastrous; they have a 25% defence bonus. Defending the hills and forest will be of the utmost importance. It will be easier to defend if the city is to the north, although I take the points that it is not the optimum site. Again, our spy up at Angle will help us decide.

 

[Sommerswerd]

FYI, This is where we stand so far:

Forested Hill (Southern spot)

Cavscout
Donsig
Smoke
Sommers

Bare Hill (Northern Spot)
Bolko
Damnrunner

 

[Indiansmoke]

Another point against the northen hill is that the second ring of BFC will be shared with Sancta city. Sancta are creative so chances are that they will win the culture war, meaning that they will be able to attack our city with mounted units in 1 turn without even us seing the units comming.

 

[Kaleb]

Man, how are going to defend that wheat spot for our food

 

[Sommerswerd]

Man, how are going to defend that wheat spot for our food

Simple...
1. By capturing Angle, or;
2. By razing Angle, or;
3. By making peace with SANCTA, or;
4. With a large Elephant/Crossbow garrison there.

Also, that city will be in a good location foodwise, even without the wheat, with all the river/grassland tiles. Maybe we can build a temporary farm on one of the grassland tiles to speed growth.

 

[damnrunner]

We will want farms and mines in the city - no point in building cottages for Sancta to pillage. We need production - not ever more gold right now. Later on - yes this will be a nice commerce city - but not until we capture Angle or are at peace with Sancta.

Another plug for the northern spot - we can attack advancing Sancta units on open terrain from the safety of a well garrisoned city. That will let our damaged units heal much faster. If we settle to the south we have to move out of the city to attack Sancta's advancing stack - or we have to wait for them to move onto a hill at which point they get defensive bonuses.

I don't see any way we can defend the wheat spot for the time being. Especially if we settle to the south. We will want to keep defensive units on the hills and keeping a defensive stack on the wheat will just spread our forces thin.

Just a though but there are few tiles on the wets side of the valley that we cant yet see - there is the potential for a great resource to be located over there and we won't want to settle until we have checked it out. I assume this will not be the case but missing out on elephants would be unfortunate.

 

[Kaleb]

Thing is though that whichever northern hill we settle on SAN can always head to the other hill while avoiding coming next to our city...

 

[damnrunner]

I would hope that we can keep enough units on the nearby hills to discourage Sancta from camping units there as they bring in reinforcements. This will be easier with the northern spot.

Thing is though that whichever northern hill we settle on SAN can always head to the other hill while avoiding coming next to our city...

That would result in a wasted turn on Sancta's part. If they can move to the other hill then they can attack our city. The only reason they would move to the hill is if they wanted to wait to bring up more reinforcements later. We can discourage this (and keep them on open ground) by keeping units on the other northern hill. While they could approach from the east - and move directly to the desert hill from the NE - that would result in them moving their stack out of the way between us and Angle which would potentially leave them open to an attack from us.

Anyhow – I feel most disagree on this point so I will just bring up one more point. How do people see our defense playing out for the southern city location?

I don’t see us taking the fight to Sancta any time soon so how do we plan to counter a stack of catapults, elephants, and longbows. We should assume Saturn will give Construction to Sancta as soon as they get it and that Sancta will then really focus on building just building a stack to ravage our lands. So 20-30 turns from now what we can expect – I’m just throwing this out there but I think at least 15 catapults, 10 elephants, and 5 long bows.

With either city site the key will be counter attacking with catapults and then following up with maces and elephants (assuming we get ivory from MS). I think 10 catapults and 10 elephants/maces should do the trick. We want to do this when they are on the open terrain just north of the northern city site. If the fight is going to take place on the 3 open tiles north of the proposed city location – isn’t that where we want our city to be located? If proponents of the southern site want to fight the battle elsewhere – I am curious where and how they see it playing out.

 

[Bolkonski]

How do people see our defense playing out for the southern city location?

I don’t see us taking the fight to Sancta any time soon so how do we plan to counter a stack of catapults, elephants, and longbows. We should assume Saturn will give Construction to Sancta as soon as they get it and that Sancta will then really focus on building just building a stack to ravage our lands. So 20-30 turns from now what we can expect – I’m just throwing this out there but I think at least 15 catapults, 10 elephants, and 5 long bows.

With either city site the key will be counter attacking with catapults and then following up with maces and elephants (assuming we get ivory from MS). I think 10 catapults and 10 elephants/maces should do the trick. We want to do this when they are on the open terrain just north of the northern city site. If the fight is going to take place on the 3 open tiles north of the proposed city location – isn’t that where we want our city to be located? If proponents of the southern site want to fight the battle elsewhere – I am curious where and how they see it playing out.

damnrunner makes some good points and asks a reasonable question here, which deserves an answer.

How do people see our defense playing out for the southern city location?

 

[Indiansmoke]

As already said, if we cannot kill the units that Sancta send the momment they enter our borders then we will lose the city...no matter front or back hill.

In a fight that both teams have lots of catapults he who wins is the one who hits with catpults first...simple.


In 20 turns we should have 6-7 catapults and a descent mix of units ourselves (including some maces) Even if Sancta come with the units that Damrunner says, we will hit with the catapults and kill most of their units with the rest of our units.....but Sancta will not come, they are not noobs, they knwo that catapults own...They will wait there, expand and improve their land while we sit at our confined land strip.

 

[damnrunner]

In a fight that both teams have lots of catapults he who wins is the one who hits with catpults first...simple.

I agree - and it will be easier to hit 1st on the northern city when Sancta approaches on the open terrain.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree - and it will be easier to hit 1st on the northern city when Sancta approaches on the open terrain.

why will it be easier? that is what roads are for.

 

[Bolkonski]

Just a small point but Horse Archers are just as good as Swordsmen against Longbowmen and even better against Catapults.

 

[damnrunner]

why will it be easier? that is what roads are for.

With the north city we attack from within our city rather than moving one tile out of the city. Our damaged units will be less vulnerable to a counter attack and will heal a turn faster if they can attack from within the city.

Counter attacks – this could be form surviving units but a more likely possibility is if Sancta splits their stack – we could kill 1 stack but the 2nd stack can then counter attack. Sancta might also keep a few chariots/Horse archers one tile back which could also counter attack with great effect.

With the north city we could also use some of our city defense units to kill off severely damaged units. With the southern city we will have to split up our units as we make the choice of what units we need to keep in the city and which ones will attack. Some garrison will always be needed as we should assume Sancta will send in a few chariots/Horse archers which could attack our city from 2 tiles out.

It is possible none of this will be a factor and Sancta will merrily march to their doom – but I expect they will give us as much difficulty as possible.

 

[Indiansmoke]

With the north city we attack from within our city rather than moving one tile out of the city. Our damaged units will be less vulnerable to a counter attack and will heal a turn faster if they can attack from within the city.

Counter attacks – this could be form surviving units but a more likely possibility is if Sancta splits their stack – we could kill 1 stack but the 2nd stack can then counter attack. Sancta might also keep a few chariots/Horse archers one tile back which could also counter attack with great effect.

With the north city we could also use some of our city defense units to kill off severely damaged units. With the southern city we will have to split up our units as we make the choice of what units we need to keep in the city and which ones will attack. Some garrison will always be needed as we should assume Sancta will send in a few chariots/Horse archers which could attack our city from 2 tiles out.

It is possible none of this will be a factor and Sancta will merrily march to their doom – but I expect they will give us as much difficulty as possible.

I know what you mean and you are right that attcking from the city is generally better than from outside...but the southern spot will be more dificult to reach for Sancta. so even if they use stack split we will know if the mounted stack is in range to attack. If we settle on northen spot, we will not know as it could be 2 tiles inside their borders and still attack...so they could very well come from behind without us knowing.

In any case we should leave a spy in front city and move him to see what is comming when the time is right.

 

[Kaleb]

Well either way we need to move the settler to the forest hill this turn. but we must decide one way or the other by next turn.

and either way we need to chop that forest that our axe is in asap.

 

[damnrunner]

As discussed before - I think the northern hill is better defensively. Especially 20 pluis turns down the line when we can expect to see a large stack of Sancta units.

But in the short term, Sancta has a lot of units in the area, and we can better conceal how undefended the city is if we build on the southern spot.

My preference would be to delay building (on the northern spot) until we can at least move up the sword that is being built.

With those Sancta chariots in the area we don't want a city that is only deafened by axes.

I know I argued earlier that we should settle as fast as possible, but I anticipate we would have a few more units by then. And would not have lost all them chariots.

 

[Indiansmoke]

We need to decide on this very soon, as we can settle next turn on forest hill if we decide to settle there.

Damrunner I get your point about Sancta camping units on the hill and attacking while in city is beter..good points...as I see it.

Points In favor of settling on the northen spot
1. more difficult for Sancta to camp units on the hill
2 later on we can defend by attacking while in city (if Sancta go for direct attack which is favorable
3. we wil be able to work wheat sooner (not much sooner though)

Points in favor of forest hill
1. can be defended easier as is closer to supply lines (at least our west ones)
2. It is a better spot in general with river and more good tiles to work
3. it is not reachable in 1 turn by Sancta mounted units (hidden ones)
4. Our borders will not be touching with Sancta's
5. minnor point, roads are there, while for northen have to be redone

I am still in favor of south point..and btw that is why swords are good now as they can prevent longbows from camping our hills