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City Attack Strenght

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Moi Magnus, Dec 4, 2019.

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What do you think about City Attack Strength?

  1. It is fine (up to the bugfix)

    6 vote(s)
    66.7%
  2. Defensive buildings should count for attack too

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Defensive buildings should count for attack, but less than for defense

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
  4. Some buildings should specifically grand bonus to attack

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Other

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,867
    As discussed on Github (https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/5928), the current situation is make cities quite weak attack-wise in the mid and late game. According to the code:

    City Defense Strength uses:
    • A base of 6
    • An addition 0.25 per population This part of the code is disabled.
    • All the bonuses from defensive buildings (with some modifiers from various effects)
    • Bonus from garrison (max(CS,RCS)/3 for land units, and max(CS,RCS)/6 for naval units). Note that the final strength can never be lower than the unit strength.
    • Add a bonus from tech (at 0%/25%/50%/75%/100% of the tech tree, it is +0/+3/+12/+28/+50, the curve is exponential).
    • Add bonus from the defense process.
    • After all of that, apply strength modifiers. City states also get bonuses here.
    • After all of that, add +3 if this is a hill, and +6 if this is a mountain.
    City Attack Strength uses:
    • City Defense Strengh
    • Minus the bonuses from defensive buildings (Without all the modifiers that should be applied to it, but this is a bug I've reported. Once this bug will be fixed, the City Attack Strength will probably be even lower)
    • Minus the bonus from the defense process (a comment in the code note that keeping the defense process for city attack strength would not work correctly for human players because of how the cache is handled)
    • After all of that, apply city attack strength modifiers.
    What is your opinion?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  2. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,061
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    I have not had a chance to play the newest version, but I believe the city ranged attack should be moderate if against units of roughly the same era. I think a strong and upgraded city should not deal more than 15 damage. I would actually not even mind if the city attack was removed completely.
     
  3. Coffee Monopoly

    Coffee Monopoly Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    101
    Gender:
    Male
    I expected this change to have far-reaching implications and be controversial, after I saw and experienced (from both sides) how comparatively weak cities actually are now. But I also remember how frustrating, arbitrary and immersion-breaking the combat utility of cities felt before, especially as it pertained to the importance of building cities on hills, for example. And I unconditionally LOVE the changes of that mechanic in the last beta (2019-12-1). You can finally have your military investment pay off, you're finally forced to actually invest at least minimally into military if you don't want to be conquered, as opposed to being safe with virtually 0 investment. And city sieges don't take half an era anymore and are actually viable as a tactic (as they should be), as opposed to only occuring at the end of a war after you've already killed all the enemy's military and crippled his economy, for lack of a powerful city siege option.

    This change alone is massive, and it makes the entire game so much better. This is a quantum leap in the military dynamics of the game. Great f:c5war:cking job, @Gazebo!
     
    vyyt and Kim Dong Un like this.
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
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    17,848
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    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Note that city strength does not scale with population - city HP scales.

    G
     
    Moi Magnus likes this.
  5. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    769
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    I remember Units taking about 30 dmg from City Bombardment when Castles came in. A bugfix should move things back in to order. We could add a bonus to City Bombardment at Arsenals if People find them a little on the weak side. Castles and Military Bases both add +100% City RangedStrikeModifier; Walls and Arsenals add 1 Range [as does the Red Fort].
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,254
    For me, the cutoff is "is the city attack so low that it actually annoys me to even activate them". That cutoff is about 10 damage for the most defensive units. It should to be that my cities never did less than 10 damage to units unless I was behind the ball on military building investment. Now there are many cases where my city does 5-9 damage...and that's too low imo unless I'm facing like a cover II infantry type unit or something.
     
    BiteInTheMark and phantomaxl1207 like this.
  7. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    695
    Gender:
    Male
    Wait I thought cities always do at least 10 damage unless against direct damage reduction like Dauntless and Armor Plating. Was that changed in recent patches?
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,254
    I agree that used to be true. I don't know when that was changed but there are several cases where I will do less than 10 damage now. BTW armor plating is not Damage reduction, its a +25% defensive promotion. The only thing I know of that truly reduces damage is the dauntless (general DR) and city raider type promotions (cut down damage from cities).
     
  9. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,136
    Have city defenses become so low that siege units are somewhat redundant? I haven't gotten a chance to do much conquering this patch but just thinking about it, if city defense gets low enough then building siege units would become less important.

    If cities were previously at the point where taking them was too difficult then another potential way to address that could have been to up the city bonus damage on siege units. Siege/defense could then become a game of cat and mouse to keep opposing siege units away from your cities.
     

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