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City conquering: too hard?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Tonas1997, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    If you check out some playthroughs in the playthoughs and photojournals sections, you can see that taking cities in VP is harder than vanila, but not impossible at all, even on deity.
     
  2. saamohod

    saamohod Chieftain

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    Do they?
     
  3. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    They do. An impossible to blockage city is a city with a lake nearby because embarked units dont count as blockage.
     
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  4. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    Thats not true, i pretty much never surround cities when i attacke them (well, i do, but when you can surround a city - it means that your enemy's army is falling apart and you already won). Just bring no less than 3 siege units and promote them properly (take that +50% city damage).

    Also when you attack a city with siege that is 1 era behind (like Catapults vs Castle) it is kinda normal that they can't take it down, isn't it?

    Learn to position your units properly, use ground to your advantage, etc. Here is an example of a normal siege:


    As you may see - i have 3 Trebuchets shooting, i also have them protected from all sides.
    My frontline units do not fight, they only act as a wall, they are fortified and heal every turn with a help of Medic2 Scout,
    Also i have built roads under my army for the sake of cycling units that are way to damaged - like two of those red-hp Knights in the center - they will run away this turn and will be replaced by other units.

    This siege will take 7 turns only. Not too much, right?

    Also as you may see i am NOT attacking Tarsus. Why? Because do not beat your head against the wall, Tarsus is impossible to capture. Hint: cites that are impossible to capture are usually crappy like Tarsus. You just don't need them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  5. saamohod

    saamohod Chieftain

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    Your knight is in trouble.
     
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  6. Joel Lee

    Joel Lee Chieftain

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    Provided that your siege units are not technologically backwards compared to the city that you targeted (as someone mentioned earlier), it shouldn't take that long to capture. I usually destroy enemy forces surrounding the city first before I really begin my city attacks, just to ensure survivability of my units (especially on high difficulties where each unit is valuable). The only time I found taking a city was hard when a civilization build all the possible defense buildings on top of the Red Fort Wonder (it had about a 120 defense when I had 3~4 field guns, so I just skipped that city entirely).

    But your point about the garrison is interesting, albeit theoretically. Aside from the difficulty issue with capturing cities, a city with a strong garrisoned unit should be much more defensible then a non-garrisoned one (I think it's the units atop castles etc. that make cities hard to capture, rather than the castle per se). So if defensive buildings provide higher bonuses for garrisoned cities instead of adding raw defense numbers, that might reflect reality a bit better. But it would be hard to incorporate in-game.

    Good question though.

    Also, to capture Tarsus above (IF, you really really want to capture that city b/c you fell in love with it), I would take out pasaragadae first, place 2 siege units on the 2 hills 2 distances await from that city, position a melee unit in front of the 2 siege units to protect them, add a naval unit if there is a route, and take all the time to take down that city (which, I would think, is a waste of resources).
     
  7. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    There are enough of coast tiles around Tarsus so I think you can take it with Galeass. 4 or 5 Galeasses are enough, or better with Frigates.
    Ships are extremely effective in taking cities.
     
  8. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    Yes, sure, but problem was that i had only 1-tile entry there (through my fort) that means that his ships will immediately kill my ships because he has better position - he can attack 1 my ship with 3 his ships. Not to mention that Tarsus is just a crappy city and i do not need it anyway. Better to leave it for him cause he will be my vassal.
    Top one survived, the one near the mountain of course died, that was a mistake.
    Yes, me too, but keep in mind that once you capture a city - next turn your units receive +10 HP heal. Thats quite impactful, not to mention that city shoots. And in that particular case - what you see on the screen is only a half of Persia's army, he has the same amount of units in a fog of war, so...
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    A couple of things regarding blockade.

    You can block lakes too. The point about blockade is that no unit can escape the city without fighting. Just placing a couple of units behind the lake blocks their escape route.

    Ships blocks two tiles, I think, so you don't have to completely surround the city with ships. If the city is very open to the sea, you can easily bombard it with ranged ships. If the city has limited sea adjacency, then you can block it easily with just one melee ship and your land units. Bringing a fleet against a coastal city helps a lot.

    And, as Owlbebach shows, you can just bring enough protected siege units if they have room for shooting. Starting field guns they gain indirect fire, and artillery gets one extra range.
     
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  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Attacking and sieging a city at the same time you are still facing a major army isn't often possible. I know you wanted to show proper unit placement, but this city is a candy cake in comparison to other cities. The river at the city gives you a great advantage, cause it's on the wrong side for defending. And you field pikeman, longswordsman and composite bowman versus Spearman and archers, which make sieging this city kinda easy.
    Just want to mention this.
     
  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    As far as i know you never play Deity, so don't be so confident. Those are not usual Spearmen, they are much stronger and he had Golden Age too (Darius UA). Also take a look at how many of them was there. He was building at least 2 of them per turn. At the same time for me every lost unit hurts and 2 lost units means that i need to retreat. The biggest problem was that desert there, it reduces mobility a lot. I had to build many roads under my army to be able to cycle units.

    Actually i also though that this will be a easy siege, but turned out that it was one of the hardest attacks that i ever had in my whole VP experience. I took full 35 turns to capture the city (screenshot was the very end of that, i started on turn 140)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  12. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Haha Darius. In my current playthrough I was only able to truely beat him when I fought his immortals with lancer :)
     
  13. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    First, you say it's easy and the siege is done in 7 rounds, and then you need 35 rounds for it? Five times the time? Sure, immortals are strong, and a golden Age in this state is annoying, and maybe such aspects, such amount of units is exactly what @Cade McCaslin wanted to say.

    Beating the AI military wise not necessarily makes even a deity player to a great player. A mate of mine was new to civ and beated the Zulu on Emperor, even his other decisions werent that great. I saw savegames from people which were able to conquer 2 civs on immortal, but have done this only by Marathon, and looking at their infrastructure or buildings in cities made me shiver how terrible it was. Sure, you need skill to survive on Deity, and I do not want to say that you are not a good player. But Iam carefully with saying, all deity player are great players automatically. ;)
     
  14. Minh Le

    Minh Le Chieftain

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    Its a problem with game speed. Deity on Marathon is easier than King on Standard. I was able to beat Deity on Epic very easily before but when I moved to Standard I can barely win at all.
     
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  15. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    Well Marathon is effectively -2 difficulties. I started playing VP on Emperor right away and it was okay after first 4 or 5 loses. Standard Deity is another thing, really. I mean i win ~40% of my games, while on Immortal i am sure i can win like 95% and the other 5% is when you are born surroundedd by ice or blocked by a mountain and have only 1 city.
    I meant it i was 7 turns of shooting the city with my Trebuchets. Before that i was fighting 2 tiles away from the city. That was not sieging a city, it was just war. If that is what he meant then it is "war is too hard" not "city conquering is too hard"
     
  16. cammcken

    cammcken Chieftain

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    This is important! Embarked units used to be able to "blockade" just the tile they were on (as opposed to true naval units which covered a wider range). When did this change?

    Also, technically it should still be possible, using a zeppelin.
     
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