City Policies (doing city specialication via policies)

[masda_gib]

Hi all,

I have an idea for a game mechanic and would like some thoughts on it. It extends the policy system of Civ6 to make city specialisation more of a thing beyond districts.
The idea goes like this:

• Not only do governments have global policy slots but cities can also gain 1-2 policy slots. In those you can place military or economic cards that make sense on a local scale. For example "+100% XYZ unit production" or "+100% district adjacency bonus". Those policy cards affect only the city they are placed in.

• Cities shouldn't start with a local policy slot but have to gain them. For simplicity's sake say one slot at population 8 and a second one at population 16.

• The city slot can house any military and economic cards you have unlocked. So it is like a small wildcard slot. But again, not all cards can be allowed, like "1 gold less unit maintance" doesn't make sense at a city level (except if it only effected units built here).

This might be useful if for example I have a 10 city empire and only 1 city has a perfect IZ location with +5 adj. bonus. It might be a waste to use the +100% IZ adj. bonus card in the government but for that city alone this policy card would be good. So you put it in the local city slot.

Maybe aquiring the city policy slots shouldn't be automatic via population but via a district/building - just like trade routes. Or maybe it should be a government policy to give cities local policy slots, so that the total number of policies stays the same. ..but that's details.

 

[R0ltanks]

I really like this hope someone makes it!

 

[Leyrann]

I like this idea. Maybe you could do something like having a number of city policies that are unlocked at a global level - Urban Planning, for example - while having other city policies that are unlocked for a city once it has a certain building - for example, once you have a Library you can use "Scientific Research" which gives +2 science.

 

[Infixo]

@masda_gib I like the idea. Started even to think about details (see below) and some questions came to mind.
Ideas.
1. I would tie number of available policies to level of gov. Early-game lev 1 is 1'policy, then 2, late-game 3. Easy to understand. oh, and Capital gets one more.
2. Could be made to create another type of Civ-uniques.
3. Probablyempire-level policies would need to netted down a little for balance. Or sorted out for: empire-related-effect vs. mutually exclusive city-level effect.
Questions
1. How often the policies could be changed?
2. How to manage if you have 20+ cities? It's not uncommon. Could be tedious. I really don't see shifting around 20 cities same way we shift policies know (I.e by manually moving cards).
3. How to teach AI to use it? If only humans could use, it would be an exploit.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Building on previous Good Ideas:
City Specialization might only be available if you Choose certain Civ-wide Government or Civics-types.
For instance, early on there could be an (additional) Government called "City States" in which you might have (slight) penalties for Civ-wide Civics and production, but gain City-Specific slots giving extra bonuses on the City level. Not good for Global Conquest, but might be excellent for Development, Colonization or Culture depending on how you choose (think: Greek City States' colonization explosion in the 8th - 7th centuries BCE, Cultural explosion in the 5th - 4th centuries BCE)
Later in the game, the Governments could be Confederacy, Federation, or Union of (Soviet Socialist?) States, which has more more centralization (more Slots) than the old City States, but also much more powerful (also more slots) individual specializations for the Cities.

Love it. Anything to bring more dynamic decision-making into Civ games.

 

[Ryika]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I personally think having a global AND a local system would be a bit overkill. Making all cards local would of course not work with all cards (such as Bonus-Combat against barbarians), so maybe it would make sense to keep one global category where you put general "utility" stuff, but having global industry policies and then additional industrial policies for specific cities seems odd.

I would rather use the system that is being used now, with governments deciding how many slots are available to you, but then make cards local, a bit stronger, and add more slots overall. You could then tie the amount of Policy Cards any city can run to it's population, so large cities can run multiple policy cards. This would reward having large cities, and weaken the strength of the number of cities in comparison (because you'll run out of global Policy Card Slots).

Then you could add prereqs that a city must fulfill. Something like working X mines if you want to use policy cards that are tied to production, with stronger cards that become available later in the game having stricter requirements. Or working X Scientist Specialists for Scientific Policy cards. Settling directly on the ocean to use cards that increase yields from Ocean Tiles/Harbor etc.

That way, such a policy card is not just something that you can use to get bonuses while doing whatever you're already doing anyway, it requires cities to actually be specialized towards doing something to get strong bonuses and potentially lose out on other things (by working weak specialists for example).

 

[Leyrann]

I would prefer seeing a "global" version that includes things like +5 Strength against barbarians, +1 movement for military units, +2 gold for all trade routes, etc, and a local version that focuses on specific cities. Thinking about what kinds of policies you should have, I'd say it should be something like this:

(of course, there should be requirements on the amount of slots as well as unlocking policies, with available policies depending on the districts, buildings and improvements in the city)

Production - All cards related to production. For example, Urban Planning (+1 production in this city) could be one of them, but also later on something like "+1 production to mines that are adjacent to two other mines", a mine variation of Feudalism, basically. Could be unlocked at some industrialization related civic.
Population - All cards related to growth, amenities and housing. For example, +1 amenity (requirement: entertainment district) or +1 housing for every district. Stuff like that.
Trade - All cards related to contact with other cities. For example, +1 food and +1 production for every trade route with an international destination. Or +1 production in the origin city for every intranational (what's it supposed to be called? I somehow forgot) trade route that has this city as destination.
Urbanization - Cards related to districts and working them. For example +25% production towards Neighborhood (requires being at least equal to the housing cap and having the Urbanization civic), +1 science for citizens working the Campus district (requires Library and, say, The Enlightenment).

 

[Infixo]

This would reward having large cities, and weaken the strength of the number of cities in comparison (because you'll run out of global Policy Card Slots

Can you explain why this would weaken wide-play?

 

[Ryika]

Can you explain why this would weaken wide-play?

It doesn't weaken wide play, but it makes having more cities less of a (relative) boost in power, because the amount of cards you can have is limited and does not grow with the wideness of your empire.

 

[Infixo]

Are you saying that e.g. You have 20 cards and if you give to 5 cities each 4 cards then the 6th city will not get a card at all? Because that would mean that cards are unique and I would rather like to give same card to couple cities if it makes sense for them.

 

[Ryika]

No, I'm saying that in the system that I would create you would not have an unlimited amount of slots for your empire, you would be restricted globally by how many slots your government provides. But you could of course use the same cards in multiple cities.

So if you have 3 Economic card slots provided by your government, you could use them for 2 cards of type 1 in 2 cities, and one card of type 2 in one city.
Or three copies of one card in 3 cities. Or three different cards in one city (if the city is big enough to have access to 3 "local" slots).

The point being, if you have 4 cities in this example, then at least one city will not be able to run any Economic policy cards.

 

[Infixo]

Seems a little restrictive but on the other hand would help to balance wide-tall.
Hm. But on the other hand, the logic could go like: such a policy is somehow related to federal resources/subsidy/money. Something that is limited. So cannot be granted to all cities at once. Yeah, I could buy that.

 

[masda_gib]

@Ryika I'm not sure I understand your system completely. But I guess it is that your policy slots are 'used up' if you use them in a city?
So, if your government has 8 policy slots you can spend them on 8 cities or 4 cities with 2 policies each for example?

Interessting idea. But then the city policies would need to be stronger or there would be no reason to not use a global policy instead. ...or would there be no global policies anymore?

The version I would suggest would be having global policies that grant cities a policy slot. So the number of aviable slots per city would be the same and no extra slots are created.

For example the policy: "Stadtrecht" (i think "municipal law" in English) - every city with 3 population and city walls gains a city policy slot. (medival policy)
That way you have to invest something to gain the slot and not every city would gain it. But you gain flexibility... should even out.

 

[masda_gib]

Thanks for all the input already.

For local cards to be interessting, they should be either
- related to terrain (+1 prod on mines, +1 gold for nat. wonder and adjacent tiles, mountains generate tourism (ski resort ^^), ...)
- related to city size (please something with specialists, I wonder why there isn't some card for those already?, +1 workable tile, ...)
- related to districts (+100% adjacency or building bonus, city center provides +1 bonus to all adjacent districts, ...)
- related to function (forts on tiles worked by this city are stronger (frontier town), ...)

 

[Ryika]

Yes, you understand my proposed changes to your idea correctly.

I said that global policies wouldn't exist anymore. At least not in the same categories that exist on the city level.
The point was that I wouldn't just want to just expand the system and then have effects overlap (such as getting Production from a Global Policy and then Production from a Local Policy), especially if the amount of local policy cards you can run is not limited. That seems like feature overkill to me.

I do agree that having ALL policies be city-based only would take away from the dynamic of the system though, so maybe it would make more sense to just make all Economy Policies be city-based. I believe not much would be lost by that in terms of global policies and the new policies would encourage city specialization.

Military and Diplomatic Categories could still be global effects.

For local cards to be interessting, they should be either
- related to terrain (+1 prod on mines, +1 gold for nat. wonder and adjacent tiles, mountains generate tourism (ski resort ^^), ...)
- related to city size (please something with specialists, I wonder why there isn't some card for those already?, +1 workable tile, ...)
- related to districts (+100% adjacency or building bonus, city center provides +1 bonus to all adjacent districts, ...)
- related to function (forts on tiles worked by this city are stronger (frontier town), ...)

That's what I love about the idea, there are SO many possibilities to combine these cards with the unique needs or possibilities of every city.

 

[masda_gib]

I said that global policies wouldn't exist anymore. At least not in the same categories that exist on the city level.
The point was that I wouldn't just want to just expand the system and then have effects overlap (such as getting Production from a Global Policy and then Production from a Local Policy), especially if the amount of local policy cards you can run is not limited. That seems like feature overkill to me.

You are right, overlap would be awkward. I don't know yet if I find fixed number of total city slots (your proposal) or fixed number of city slots per city better.

Maybe let it depend on the government (number just examples and totally not balanced):
Democracy: 3 global slots + 2 city slots + 2 city slots per city (much freedom for each city, only few global cards)
Fascism: 5 global slots + 5 city slots (only enough city slots to make a few centres of power)
Communism: 6 global slots + 1 city slot per city (the same for every one with only little specialisation)

EDIT: I still think slots per city should have a prerequistite. Otherwise it gets too much to manage or overpowered easily. So no +2 city slots per city for democracy but +1 with sewers in the city and +1 at pop 10 or something like that.
And the slot for communism requires a campus or a industrial zone in the city.

 

[Olleus]

This is a great idea. One question, could the same card be used in several cities simultaneously? I'd suggest no, otherwise the specialisation stuff would matter less. Would also balance the game more for every city outside of your 'core' to contribute less to your empire.

And a small suggestion: Add in a new district called "Administrative Centre". Buildings are things like "Town Hall", "Courtroom" etc... This district + buildings do two things:
1) Unlocks local policy slots
2) Reduces the rate at which District and Civilian units cost increases (the default would have to go way up to compensate)

 

[Leyrann]

@Ryika I'm not sure I understand your system completely. But I guess it is that your policy slots are 'used up' if you use them in a city?
So, if your government has 8 policy slots you can spend them on 8 cities or 4 cities with 2 policies each for example?

Interessting idea. But then the city policies would need to be stronger or there would be no reason to not use a global policy instead. ...or would there be no global policies anymore?

The version I would suggest would be having global policies that grant cities a policy slot. So the number of aviable slots per city would be the same and no extra slots are created.

For example the policy: "Stadtrecht" (i think "municipal law" in English) - every city with 3 population and city walls gains a city policy slot. (medival policy)
That way you have to invest something to gain the slot and not every city would gain it. But you gain flexibility... should even out.

Let's turn it around and require municipal law to build a wall, just like in real life. (nah, I don't know)

You are right, overlap would be awkward. I don't know yet if I find fixed number of total city slots (your proposal) or fixed number of city slots per city better.

Maybe let it depend on the government (number just examples and totally not balanced):
Democracy: 3 global slots + 2 city slots + 2 city slots per city (much freedom for each city, only few global cards)
Fascism: 5 global slots + 5 city slots (only enough city slots to make a few centres of power)
Communism: 6 global slots + 1 city slot per city (the same for every one with only little specialisation)

EDIT: I still think slots per city should have a prerequistite. Otherwise it gets too much to manage or overpowered easily. So no +2 city slots per city for democracy but +1 with sewers in the city and +1 at pop 10 or something like that.
And the slot for communism requires a campus or a industrial zone in the city.

I really like this idea. Would probably need some aditional balancing, but having global slots, slots for every city and a few slots that you can divide however you like would make for nice gameplay.

I suppose the global slots would be related to things that affect your whole empire at once, like "+5 strength against barbarians" or "-25% foreign religion spread" (related to having a state religion, of course, which would be another nice addition to the game), wheras the local slots would affect only the city they're in (for example, +2 production (requires size 5), just to name something random). I'm against policy cards being used only for one city though; it's some additional balancing work to have variety in all cities, but if you have two seperate cities that have 7 mines, you'll want to have a +1 production for every worked mine in both of them. At that commercial center in the heartland, however, you'll want something along the lines of +2 gold from every incoming or outgoing trade route. (oh wait, just realized that I commented on something that was in my next quote)

This is a great idea. One question, could the same card be used in several cities simultaneously? I'd suggest no, otherwise the specialisation stuff would matter less. Would also balance the game more for every city outside of your 'core' to contribute less to your empire.

And a small suggestion: Add in a new district called "Administrative Centre". Buildings are things like "Town Hall", "Courtroom" etc... This district + buildings do two things:
1) Unlocks local policy slots
2) Reduces the rate at which District and Civilian units cost increases (the default would have to go way up to compensate)

I like the idea of an administrative centre or something like it to increase the slots in the city. Would probably have to not count for the district limit though.

 

[masda_gib]

Okay, now I'll have to find time to try to make a first iteration of this into a mod if it is possible.
I'm already scared of the UI for this.

 

[Leyrann]

Okay, now I'll have to find time to try to make a first iteration of this into a mod if it is possible.
I'm already scared of the UI for this.

To be fair I'm not sure if it's even possible. I certainly do hope it is though. Maybe I could help out a bit with the easier parts? I don't have modding experience, but I sure intend to learn how to mod.