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City production decisions in classic era

planetfall

Emperor
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
1,540
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So if have a handful of cities and don't need a special resource, what questions do you ask in deciding whether to expand or improve in classic era?

Game environment:
difficulty: immortal or diety
number of cities: between 4 and 12
defense needed at this time: no
Another civ close enough and weak enough for an attack: no
Need to close off AI routes to your cities: no

So is it better play style to try to give current cities more growth and improve production or to wait and expand to X number of cities asap?

Curious on your thoughts. I usually try to get pop to 5 and 3 districts before setting 1 or 2 cities as settler factors but starting to question that approach.
 
A bit hard to answer concretely, since it depends on what opener you use.
But generally speaking you want to settle over developing your lands early on.
Getting builders increases the cost for future builders (which is why you want to wait for serfdom), and districts generally dont pay off to build early on unless its holy sites, commercial hubs or government plaza.
You keep district costs low by locking in the cost if you dont intend to build them right away (just placing the districts and not building them), and you can keep the cost down further if you skip turn rather than finish up a tech (only works on pc afaik).

That being said, there is the religious opener where you generally can do both, so it doesnt become a tradeoff, but it depends on map RNG.
The religious opener heavily uses adjacency pantheons, rushing a religion off of 2 (max 3) cities, and frontloading huge production from work ethic.
The production you get from good holy sites outweighs any production you would get from increasing population and improved tiles early on, and it fuels a faith based economy.
If you can pair that with monumentality golden age, you can generally chain purchase settlers early on, and use those to settle even more lands where you can leverage your faith pantheon, build more holy sites for more production and faith, and essentially just snowball yourself to victory.
You want to pair 4x Moksha as the governor of choice in that case, because that allows you to instabuy districts, which means that you can create a self sustaining snowball where you faith purchase a settler, settle some high faith lands, buy the holy site with Moksha, and buy even more settlers.
Pair it with government plaza and you get a billion free builders from it as well if you chose the Ancestral Hall.

The other way to play is to rush commercial hubs in all cities, and in that case you can argue for Magnus and a few builders to chop out the commercial hubs.
You want those for trade routes that frontload food/production for you.


I would stay away from spamming campuses early on, thats usually a mistake that people do on lower difficulties as it doesnt help you set up a snowball, and will only put you further behind long term.
People generally assume that you need to spam campuses "because the AI is ahead", but thats the wrong approach, as they will be ahead regardless of what you do, and thus its better to voluntarily stay behind a bit to mass settle and set up strong infrastructure (holy sites or commercial hubs), and only then start explode in science/culture in the mid game when you have already set up the necessary infrastructure.
 
Interesting. I have not tried the Moksha approach nor the hub approach. I will give those a try. I do delay expanding a bit until ancestral hall.

Since you mentioned faith. In many games I find the AI is so aggressive in converting cities, I run the risk of losing my chosen religion. Yesterday I think I figured out the issue. I had been using this approach:
select religion and 2 options, one being religious building
select tithe
select something
start inquisition

It's the last one that has been causing the issue. It's coming too late and like last game it's too tense with my cities being converted. I only had 2 cities, the capital and 1 low production city selected for resource. There were
2 missionaries within 3 tiles of capital. I just could not generate faith fast enough with only 5 cities. Now I'm going to test moving the inquisition up to the second or third selection. Second if it's available, as losing my religion is worst than a tithe financial gain.
 
The AI generally doesnt try to convert your cities (if they contain your religion already), only the ones that you converted by dont belong to you originally will they actively try to convert.
As long as you use a missionary (or even naturally convert) on your fresh cities, they should leave your cities alone.
Its very rare that you have to use an inquisition to defend your religion, and in either case you can usually keep the religion safe by either killing their religious units with military units (if at war), or just by having a debater apostle whacking them.

Personally I also rush the AI a lot with the crusade religious opener (its broken, why not abuse it), so that keeps enemy missionaries even more passive.
 
Hmmm, in this game I've had India throw a regular stream of apostles and missionaries to a city I built before had religious conversion. My missionaries don't last long in combat and apostles are too expensive for a limited gain that religion offers, so I defend with inquisition. I had to park a unit near the city in order to stop the stream,
and started placing cities near India to distract them in prep to conquest.
 
Are you playing with mods? For a while I was playing with a mod (real ai or something like that) that made the ai much more aggressive wrt religion.
 
Are you playing with mods? For a while I was playing with a mod (real ai or something like that) that made the ai much more aggressive wrt religion.
Sounds like it, as the AI pretty much never tries to convert my cities for some reason (assuming my religion is already in place in my own cities).
 
Sounds like it, as the AI pretty much never tries to convert my cities for some reason (assuming my religion is already in place in my own cities).
You were never victim of the missionaries carpet?
 
You were never victim of the missionaries carpet?
The missionaries arrive, but as far as I can tell pretty much always just pass through or at best spend just a charge.
Essentially a non issue, and I figured it was due to the ai trying to avoid bad relations or trying to get the most bang for the buck by targeting unconverted cities.
One of the reasons I rarely get to use the holy war casual belli, even though I'm trying to use whatever justification I can in order to get the inspiration (assuming I'm going to eat anyway).

Not sure what causes this behaviour.
 
The missionaries arrive, but as far as I can tell pretty much always just pass through or at best spend just a charge.
Essentially a non issue, and I figured it was due to the ai trying to avoid bad relations or trying to get the most bang for the buck by targeting unconverted cities.
One of the reasons I rarely get to use the holy war casual belli, even though I'm trying to use whatever justification I can in order to get the inspiration (assuming I'm going to eat anyway).

Not sure what causes this behaviour.
I guess the AI used to be more aggressive with their missionaries. But I still don't like the carpet...and I hate them when they convert me before I get the chance to jump start my religion so I've become quite adept at hunting AI religious units...it's fun to hunt them while having them locked in a friendship or alliance:)
 
I guess the AI used to be more aggressive with their missionaries. But I still don't like the carpet...and I hate them when they convert me before I get the chance to jump start my religion so I've become quite adept at hunting AI religious units...it's fun to hunt them while having them locked in a friendship or alliance:)
It sort of takes care of itself when you rush religion off of 2 cities (what I usually recommend on deity), since you generally need 2 holy sites for it to succeed anyway. And when the prophet is popped, both your cities get converted automatically (assuming they have a holy site each) and you are generally safe from missionaries at that stage as they prioritize unconverted cities and city states.
 
It sort of takes care of itself when you rush religion off of 2 cities (what I usually recommend on deity), since you generally need 2 holy sites for it to succeed anyway. And when the prophet is popped, both your cities get converted automatically (assuming they have a holy site each) and you are generally safe from missionaries at that stage as they prioritize unconverted cities and city states.
Good advice, I just don't play deity anymore, if forces me too much on one path to victory and I just want to play lazy and relaxed, emperor/immortal for me!
 
Agreed, I can play diety, but perfer immortal as don't have to think as much. Just fyi, the mod that triggers religious unit attacks is the one that allows multiple religious buildings.
 
Good advice, I just don't play deity anymore, if forces me too much on one path to victory and I just want to play lazy and relaxed, emperor/immortal for me!
Nothing wrong with that. You can utilize it on any difficulty though, so if early missionaries are an annoyance, try to have more holy sites ready before the prophet is popped. Imo the best beliefs are work ethic and crusade anyway, and since the AI doesnt prioritize those, you can generally hold on to the prophet a few turns and wait for a critical holy site to finish up before popping him.
 
you can generally hold on to the prophet a few turns and wait for a critical holy site to finish up before popping him.
I don't understand this bit.
The moment I get my prophet I spend it. And it's not like I actively play the RV game, because I could get that in 75% of my games but I just don't want it.
 
I don't understand this bit.
The moment I get my prophet I spend it. And it's not like I actively play the RV game, because I could get that in 75% of my games but I just don't want it.
When you pop your prophet, every city you own with a holy site gets your religion immediately as their majority religion, and wipes out any foreign religions.
Having your religion as a majority religion generally makes them safe from enemy missionaries who prefer to target unconverted cities.
Hence it can be a good idea to wait a few turn to let a holy site finish (assuming you were building one) before you pop your prophet, so that you get the religion there automatically.
It also saves on costs for your own missionaries (because you wouldnt have to spread to that city), so there's that too.
 
Good idea on holding prophet. I've done it a couple of times when I wanted a couple more RS to start with. Now I have to test which is better, using the prophet immediately or waiting a bit. I think the key will be the number of religious sites. If too few, the ai will work to convert and may lose religion, i.e. benefit of religious worship center which will hurt the game, but if enough then easy to defend and once get up 2 worship centers, there is no problem with city conversions.
 
Once I've defended and expanded a religion on one apostle before. My cities we're being converted left and right...my prophet came in very late and I only had a couple of RS, my faith output was low but I still managed to get that apostle. Then it was a matter of hunting missionaries, healing, rinse and repeat. It was fun:)
 
Good idea on holding prophet. I've done it a couple of times when I wanted a couple more RS to start with. Now I have to test which is better, using the prophet immediately or waiting a bit. I think the key will be the number of religious sites. If too few, the ai will work to convert and may lose religion, i.e. benefit of religious worship center which will hurt the game, but if enough then easy to defend and once get up 2 worship centers, there is no problem with city conversions.
Depends completely on circumstance. Generally I only play work ethic and crusade since they are so broken that they are 100% worth investing in under the correct circumstances, and in that case I want the holy sites to finish anyway since it means the holy sites can leverage work ethic immediately (because I waited for the holy site to finish). Since those pretty much never get picked by the AI, I can afford to wait since the hard part is getting the prophet to begin with, not the beliefs I want.

If you play on a lower difficulty you might want to pop him sooner though, because you might get the prophet so early that you get to choose something like feed the world or choral music (essentially impossible to get on deity on a consistent basis and outside of extreme luck). Still, work ethic and crusade are generally imo by far the best picks, even if you can pick those others.
 
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