City reverts - taking Forbidden Palace with it

[Melinder]

I can hardly see the screen through my tears.

The glorious Babylonian empire has been reduced to a corrupt den of sin, libraries and marketplaces in half the continent gathering dust, useless in a morass of highly developed one-coin cities. The map is filled with smoke.

This is what happened - DON'T let it happen to you or someone you love. Having filled all available space, I went to war with the Chinese to get more land and a great leader. I got both. I saved the leader for a much-needed FP in the central city in the new territory. He faithfully stood by as the city slowly came out of resistance, then out of disorder, then into happiness with the addition of temples, furs, dyes (I'm not sure why "dyes" make 'em so happy, but whatever...) and, after a while, with Babylonian citizens themselves, 'cause my people are friendly and like to breed.

When all looked safe, the FP was made, and the cities around it sprung into usefullness, so I set about for hundreds of years pouring $ into developing them. The Chinese were wiped off the continent, reduced to one little city on a tiny island up north. Every citizen in every long-captured city was happy - we enjoyed all 8 luxuries and a $hitload of marketplaces and temples.

Then. Jesus christ. My military advisor brings terrible news. I'm like, ok, Shanghai, but isn't that where I built the... OH. MY. GOD.

I pray. I win it back. I'm too scared to bombard it, so I just charge in with cavalry. And there it is, empty. Forbidden Palace in 300 turns.

The urge to reload is almost unstoppable.

 

[Bugg]

Is this city on a coast, someone said that the first coast city almost always flips?

 

[Melinder]

Naw, it was right in the friggin' middle of the continent, that's why I built the FP there!

 

[Peteus]

I wouldn't even think twice about reloading. The city flip "feature" has some promise, but is very poorly implemented.

When something idiotic like you describe happens, I just make it unhappen, because it adds nothing to the game. Some have argued that culture flips cut both ways - don't be silly. I've never had a city flip back to me, because I never lose core cities unless the game is already over! (And I'm not one to keep scratching to the last man.)

Sounds like you learned an important lesson though...never decimate an enemy without finishing it! I've seen way too many cities flip over to an enemy who had been reduced to one size 1 city on another continent/island. Once I landed a huge amphibious assault force beside the enemy's last outpost, only to look on in horror as two of his old cities flipped one turn before I could stage the final assault! (After holding them for >20 turns and having built them up considerably through rush building.) Your story tops mine though!

 

[Zouave]

I hope everyone is convinced.

THERE IS TOO MUCH FLIPPING. Correct this with a patch.

Also, this shows the need to RAZE MOST ALL CONQUERED CITIES.
Which I neither like nor consider realistic.

Bad glitch.

 

[cutiestar]

Zouave stop acting ike a child, every post you enter on these boards is complaining and whining, and usually for no reason.

There is not too much flipping, the forbidden palace should never have been built in a city that was aquired, one simple settler of
his own should have been built and turned into a new city, fresh for the GL.

It was a tactical error and i am sure it wont happen again, lol Sometimes in strategy games we all learn our lessons the hard way.

But if the game was going well, and keen to see how well it would have finished, just reload it, although i think it may flip still after the reload.

 

[BigBirdZ28]

I love the unexpected.

From your post, it seems your enjoying this challenge waaaaaay too much to load.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by cutiestar
There is not too much flipping, the forbidden palace should never have been built in a city that was aquired

The FP should make it IMPOSSIBLE for the city to flip back, just like the regular palace makes your capital immune to propaganda and culture flip.

 

[Moulton]

This is scary. I just took half the Roman civ, and was planning on installing the FP in Rome, after renaming it. Sort of Double pain for him... Maybe not
I probably should have continued to eliminate him. I poushed the French off to a single island once--one I could not invade without Marines, which were several hundred years away. Then never bothered me again.
Currently I pushed the Zulus back to the jungles, and then granted them peace ( for a price ) Thats been 1000 years, and they have not made any trouble. They are in awe of my civ, so are the Romans...
However, I did have a city on the Roman border flip to the Romans once, before he declared war. It was simply too close to his capitol, I suppose. Here is randomness. I was mad. I don't cheat, and I realize restating is considered cheating. And is, it you are trying to avoid a situation... but I did anyway. That city never flipped again...

 

[Melinder]

Update - it's 120 years since the disaster, and the FP is now only 287 turns away, so lookin' good!

BigBirdZ28 is right - In the sick fanatic way I'm enjoying the challenge too much to reload. Though I know that it was just dumb 1 in a million bad luck, and if I reloaded and then did something else random, chances are overwhelming that the city would never have reverted, and the massive investment I made in those cities would be paying off nicely. So I don't blame anyone for reloading - something that random and devestating should have little to do with the game outcome.

I think it was posting here that helped my resolve to forge on. Thanks Civvers

No question about it from now on - even if you're not razing the other cities, start the future FP one from scratch. Moulton, I'm glad to hear you're changing your plans for Rome. If another civ is spared this fate, then the suffering of the Babylonian people will not have been for naught.

Nagging issue - I'm playing pre-patch. The patch makes cultural aquisitions easier - would that actually INCREASE the chance for something like this to happen?

 

[Richard III]

As I said more bitterly in a similar thread, the flip feature is out of hand, not because it is in and of itself bad, but because there seems to be no consistent way for anyone to prevent it.

Machiavelli spent a great deal of time writing about how to assimilate conquered territories in the Prince. Pity his rules couldn't have been observed in the game so there would have been something someone could do to prevent these seemingly random disasters. One of those rules is, of course, "live in the conquered territory to show you like it," or something to that effect. And yet building a forbidden palace seems to have no effect at all.

I say this with a tear or two myself, thinking of the Forbidden Palace I placed in a conquered Persian city adjacent to five of my own. Sadly, my wonderful summer palace is no more...

R.III

 

[57%]

I've had a city captured from me 'flip' back to my possession. I've also had my own 'newly founded' cities flip, so I don't see that razing and refounding instead of capturing makes much difference.

 

[57%]

P.S. A warning that a city is about to flip would be much appreciated. "Your excellency, the ungrateful residents of Paris have called a general strike against foreign domination" etc.

 

[Smash]

The frustration level in this game is way too high.In their bid for challenge,Firaxis has created a monster.

Seriously,if you broke your monitor after such an incident,I think you would have a valid legal case against Firaxis

 

[Rhandom]

Cutiestar, stop acting like a child. You seem to attack anyone who'd dare point out flaws with the game, even though it was obviously rushed ou the door with plenty of admitted bugs.

There is no rhyme or reason to culture flips from captured cities. You should not have to raze a city and start from scratch. Capturing cities is the whole point of civilizations, not genocide. The rules for culture flips need to be consistent, logical, and the bugs in the system squashed.

A Forbidden palace is supposed to represent a second seat of government, the center of your culture in a distant land. It is silly that anything but a vastly superior culture could make it revert, especially without reverting any cities in between. It is even sillier that you have no warning of it, and no defense against it, except total genocide of everyone you conquer. At least in all the other 4x game you could use your spies defensively - in Civ3, there is no effective defense.

If they wont explain culture flips, or fix culture flips, they need to at least make warnings that a city is planning to leave.

 

[cutiestar]

Rhandom I never attack anybody, but when people are pointing out flaws, just because they are not skilled enough to play the game well, then i think it is rather stupid. There are several people on this fanatics site that have no problem with culture flipping, ohh blow me away, they are also the same people that can play and win at the highest level, go figure.

This game is a program, Firaxis have programmed the culture flipping this way, it is strategy, you have to play the best strategy to counteract this, If you don't like the way Firaxis made the game, and prefer the way AOE was made instead, then you can play that.

Firaxis did not make this game to suit your every desire, they made it for the masses, and the masses who realise it is a game of skill, don't mind when there is a certain part of the game that is causing them to think harder.

I have no problem with culture flipping, it is very rare for me, and so I must therefore think there is some thought needed on behalf of the people who are culture flipped often.

 

[Peteus]

Again, if you know the solution to culture flipping, tell us what it is! The strategies you and the couple of people who agree with you contribute are all well known (and sometimes incorrect.) If you have something new that actually solves the problem (that is, cities flipping when they have no reason to do so), put it on the table! Prove it, and I'll finally be impressed.

By the way, I don't have much culture flipping in my games either. I have adapted to either eliminate a target civ so fast that they don't have time to start flipping, or to raze like Atilla! But I'm often much more afraid of culture flipping than I am of the entire enemy army. The frustration that this causes diminishes the experience of what is otherwise an excellent, enjoyable game. That's why I'd like to see it changed.

 

[Eastman]

This case happened many times in my last deity game. After much more times reloading, I got some solutions for that.
* If the occupied city survives till 0 resistance, build a Library as soon as possible(rush it). Culture generated by Library(3 per turn) will prevent the city from being reversed.
* For city which couldn't survive till 0 resistance, move all forces out and right near it. Attack and occupy it again and again. After about 3 times of occupation, it'll be hard to reverse.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Eastman
This case happened many times in my last deity game. After much more times reloading, I got some solutions for that.
* If the occupied city survives till 0 resistance, build a Library as soon as possible(rush it). Culture generated by Library(3 per turn) will prevent the city from being reversed.
* For city which couldn't survive till 0 resistance, move all forces out and right near it. Attack and occupy it again and again. After about 3 times of occupation, it'll be hard to reverse.

I have run some tests on Cultural flips. I've never lost a city with a large military force. The military police probably reduce the chance for a flip. Also, I know for a fact that culture is not sufficient in and of itself to prevent a flip, luxuries are important, too. So, you need to build a marketplace/bank. But I think there is always still a chance of flipping.

I won't raze cities; I liberate them, so I do have to suffer the occasional flip -- once three cities in one turn. Never have I experienced such a terrible result, though.

Poor, Melinder. I do feel your pain.

War is hell.

 

[FM_Freyland]

Unless the newly conquered town is likely to be counter-attacked right away, I tend to leave only two of my units inside the town proper, the rest "behind" it. I have not been impressed with sheer numbers of units playing a part in preventing "flipping" and I would like to have some handy when it goes.

Jonathan