City Spacing and Loyalty

[SeanTM]

I just played my first game where I challenged the Loyalty model and paid the price. As Egypt, I had constructed a nice contiguous 7 city empire on a continent with two other civs. In a “what the Hell” move I tried to squeeze in one more city just over the boundary with Tamar’s empire. This was a disaster. Even employing a governer it rebelled in about 10 turns. Once rebelled I tried to take it with force, that failed as well. At turn 170 or so, musketmen had just come online so the Free city had a garrison of one. It kicked ass against Tamar’s inferior tech army. Thought I could take it with two musketmen of my own, but as the garrison died, they spawned more. It was around then I gave up and reverted the game to 160, before I had this hairbrain idea of one more city.

Is this a normal experience? If so, how are you supposed to expand your empire once you fill the local contiguous space? I was playing for a Science win, so I was not keen on going to war with Tamra and being hated for warmongering.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I had a rough go at it with this start as England.
I was boxed in pretty good by 3 mountain chains and some water.
Difficult Land as well.
Deity, Standard Map, Standard Settings.
When you have some problems expanding fast enough and mix in a Dark Age...
Loyalty problems can be a serious pain.

One of the CS's was wedged inside of double mountains and hills only allowing 2 tiles to attack from North and South.
You could put some Ranged Units around but it was a nightmare when the AI got inside of it.

I ended up getting control of it on turn 138.
However I have 9 cities total.
Land is pretty horrid.
SPT is close to most AIs but under 100.

Korea is on the other side of the map laughing at me.

Dark Age to start and had to Raze a city... make peace and wait.
The AI plopped down another city where I was going to and I took it.
Took another 3 cities but slow going.

Gave Peace and thinking of attacking someone else with easier land to attack.

Pro Tip to help you... When you reach Feudalism you actually have to put the +2 Card in for your Builders.
Don't do like I do sometimes where I build 6 builders and forget the card... sux!
Uhhh WTF is going on why do I only have 3 builds on my builders???

Another Pro Tip... Chop the walls in on the last turn preferably with Limes and Magnus.
Sometimes I forget about the walls and they get built and not chopped... %$^&*$_%*^)_#

 

[playshogi]

So, hey, with that kind of promotion, where is the turn 1 save?!?

 

[Midgardsormr]

Snuggling up against Tamar is chancy business with her continuous golden ages. If you're going to forward settle a large golden age population, you need to be ready to quickly chop in some population, make sure you have ample amenities, and possibly look for some additional loyalty bonuses through policies. Oh, and buy a Monument first thing. Bonus food resources are fine to keep if you have the luxury of letting your city grow naturally, but chopping them for instant people is a great way to increase your loyalty pressure. And don't be afraid to do the same to the cities closest to your new one.

Pay close attention to the loyalty values in Settler view on the land you intend to settle. That gives you a gauge for exactly how much additional loyalty you'll need to generate to hold on to a 1-pop city on that tile. Governor is +8, Monument is +1. I'm not sure what the penalties and bonuses for amenities are.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

So, hey, with that kind of promotion, where is the turn 1 save?!?

Don't think I saved this one.
I don't usually save them because not too many people are interested.
Especially these kind of starts I rarely see anyone wanting to play and share games like Deity Challenges in Civ V.
I tried a thread sharing games with Civ VI but hardly any interest.
As stated by other players it appears people want OP starts posted up.
Someone posted that if the GOTM Maps weren't somewhat "special" nobody would play them.
Most people look at this start and re-roll.
I play the standard/standard maps and I find these type of starts are common so no need to re-roll.

My next game I randomly rolled Japan... seems like I roll Japan more often than I should on Random.
Anyways the start was kinda decent on the coast, move one hex to settle on a lux.
Enough production but maybe not enough food.
Russia capital is 8 hexes away. We are on a small edge of the map... a somewhat small peninsula.
Difficult land with a bunch of hills and mountains. Difficult to move Armies quickly.
Monty is directly to our West. Russia settles pretty quick taking all the land before I can pump out a settler.
This is going Builder, Settler, Army. So I forget the Settler and rush an Army.
I go sailing first to pick up the whales. I sell the luxuries and have a bunch of Gold.
Russia has 4 Chariots along with 3 Archers and 3 Warriors and attacks.
I fend them all off pretty good slicing them up. They offer Peace.
I save the game not sure if I want it.
Problem is that I am now at turn 45+ with one city and Russia has me basically dominated with difficult land and all the Horses and Iron.
Russia settling 3 cities is like another AI settling 6 LOL
I have to do something like get Magnus to where I can build horses with his special ability.
One could buy 2 horses and 2 iron off of the other AIs but that isn't very realistic.
I wouldn't doubt Russia having Walls in all Cities soon not that they actually need them.
The Land and those Chariots/Archers would slice my Army up pretty good.

Let us not forget that even though we are DOF with Monty he is directly West gobbling up that land.
I ask him to join the war and he does but not helping

Nobody really wants to play those starts blind and with GOTM rules.
I play no re-loads, re-plays or re-rerolls. Once I click next turn I won't go back.
If my game crashes I make the same moves previously.
Some Players want to take the file and play it over and over posting up how they crushed it

 

[Victoria]

Is this a normal experience?

If unaware yes. The loyalty guide in my signature gives you some idea of what you need.

If I was to forward settle now (and I do) you need to be very aware of how many large pop cities will affect you but just be generally aware that to successfully do it some things are key.

External cities will -20 you at max so that's 5 turns till free city. You need to reduce that -20 as much as possible.

1. Buy a monument on Turn 1 for +1
2. Slot the +2 loyalty card for +2
3. Send in the governor for +8 (if later you can probably afford the extra +2 from Amani but lets not consider here)
4. be Happy for +3 ... this is the turning point

You are now 1 pop suffering -20 counteracted with +14 so you have 17 turns to fix things

5. For goodness sake do not starve because that is -6 and is your death knell
6. Buy a builder at T1, you should not have settled somewhere where you cannot chop in at least 2 pop... the more pop the better (within the limits of point 5). Your pop is on average twice as powerful as the enemies... and also be aware it is not just the enemies cities affecting you, CS also do... add up all their pop, any city within 9 tiles that is not your then divide that by 6 (2 for distance then 3 for max ratio) and the number at the end of it you need to be higher than within 17 turns... the higher the better.

7. Last but not least... be aware if they are in a golden and you are not... and also be aware how long it is until an era change occurs. These make a massive difference to the sums above.

... I think i will add this to the guide.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

I still very much dislike the loyalty mechanic. It's unrealistic and I don't really feel like it adds anything fun to the game. If managed properly it's a non issue but it feels like all it does is try and slow you down. I keep feeling like the AI is such that they have to design whole systems around it's shortcomings instead of just making the AI play more intelligently. After quite a long time playing with it now, it has changed the way I play and it hasn't improved or enhanced my experience at all. I much preferred Civ without it. I'm hoping very much that they tweak the loyalty system the way they have the war mongering system.

 

[Midgardsormr]

I like the idea of it, but I think it's too difficult to muster loyalty pressure as a weapon. I'd love to see more ways to manipulate it, and for those that exist to be effective. I tried using spies in conjunction with Bread & Circus projects against a city with only 10 points of loyalty growth, and by the time I'd gotten it to flip I was within a couple of turns of a Domination victory, anyway.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I still very much dislike the loyalty mechanic. It's unrealistic and I don't really feel like it adds anything fun to the game. If managed properly it's a non issue but it feels like all it does is try and slow you down. I keep feeling like the AI is such that they have to design whole systems around it's shortcomings instead of just making the AI play more intelligently. After quite a long time playing with it now, it has changed the way I play and it hasn't improved or enhanced my experience at all. I much preferred Civ without it. I'm hoping very much that they tweak the loyalty system the way they have the war mongering system.

It is going to get worse from my understanding.
You are going to have to deal with Natural Disasters in the next Expansion.
More stuff to slow you down.

I find the best way not to get slowed down is to be in Golden Ages.
When I am in those, I can do whatever I want basically.
Fall into a Dark Age and the handcuffs are on.
Normal Ages limit what you can do as well I suppose.

Golden Age and To Arms with Light Penalties seems to be my favorite but it comes late in the game.
I notice the Pros finish the game before this is an option.
My games tend to get bogged down and I have to play waiting games many times.
I think it is because I am not building a large enough military.
I need to get better at balancing tech, civics, gold per turn and size of military.
Most games I have a hard time getting all of them to sync together in a harmonious nature.

I notice if you play with a map with a lot of chops it is completely different than being in land with hardly any.
They say in Gathering Storm that if you if you chop too much your cities will be under water.

 

[Victoria]

now, it has changed the way I play and it hasn't improved or enhanced my experience at all. I

well said sir, occasionally I’ll bread and circus attack for variety but it feels so gimmicky. However I do admit that it has stopped that horrible forward settling and does make me plan attacks more.

I notice the Pros finish the game before this is an option.

or stop playing the game before then... turn times got long and repetitive for me after T100-150. Monumentality golden ages are awesome, they just outshine the others unless you really have pushed harbours.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

If unaware yes. The loyalty guide in my signature gives you some idea of what you need.

If I was to forward settle now (and I do) you need to be very aware of how many large pop cities will affect you but just be generally aware that to successfully do it some things are key.

External cities will -20 you at max so that's 5 turns till free city. You need to reduce that -20 as much as possible.

1. Buy a monument on Turn 1 for +1
2. Slot the +2 loyalty card for +2
3. Send in the governor for +8 (if later you can probably afford the extra +2 from Amani but lets not consider here)
4. be Happy for +3 ... this is the turning point

You are now 1 pop suffering -20 counteracted with +14 so you have 17 turns to fix things

5. For goodness sake do not starve because that is -6 and is your death knell
6. Buy a builder at T1, you should not have settled somewhere where you cannot chop in at least 2 pop... the more pop the better (within the limits of point 5). Your pop is on average twice as powerful as the enemies... and also be aware it is not just the enemies cities affecting you, CS also do... add up all their pop, any city within 9 tiles that is not your then divide that by 6 (2 for distance then 3 for max ratio) and the number at the end of it you need to be higher than within 17 turns... the higher the better.

7. Last but not least... be aware if they are in a golden and you are not... and also be aware how long it is until an era change occurs. These make a massive difference to the sums above.

... I think i will add this to the guide.

Doesn’t religion also affect this? If you can change it’s religion to whatever yours is that also adds loyalty I believe.

 

[Victoria]

Doesn’t religion also affect this? If you can change it’s religion to whatever yours is that also adds loyalty I believe.

Yep my, bad, the guide was written a while ago... I'll updatye today hopefully, thanks.

 

[NarrativeKnight]

It sounds like there is nothing to be done about loyalty except deal with it. Thank you for the guide. I still want a way to shorten the distance that loyalty pushes out. When there are no cities within 9 or 10 hexes I SHOULD have no problem settling. It is just crazy how far it reaches.

 

[Victoria]

When there are no cities within 9 or 10 hexes I SHOULD have no problem settling. It is just crazy how far it reaches.

It only reaches 9.
And the negative numbers you see on the ground are incorrect because they just show pop pressure but still indicate 9 tiles. There is a param that limits loyalty to 9 tiles, why do you think differently?

 

[NarrativeKnight]

It only reaches 9.
And the negative numbers you see on the ground are incorrect because they just show pop pressure but still indicate 9 tiles. There is a param that limits loyalty to 9 tiles, why do you think differently?

I was seeing the negative numbers and counting away from the city center tiles around them and I didn't see any cities within a 9 hex range so it made me think that the pop pressure was going out that far. Started a new game and got the 65K resource bug with stone but since it isn't really used beyond needing it for Stonehenge I am good for a while I think. If I see the negative numbers out past the 9 hex range again I will screenshot it. Thank you for the reply.