City spam

[InterAl]

Since maintenance cost are gone (and gold isn't directly used for research anyway), seems to me like city-spamming near luxury resources early on is a very beneficial and strong strategy. The only real penalty is the unhappiness it adds, but the +5 bonus for each luxury resource you improve easily takes care of that. There's also the issue of culture - it's supposedly much harder to develop your culture with a lot of cities, but even then I fear spamming is just too strong and beneficial than earlier civs. The game clearly favors it in my experience.
Any thoughts?

 

[Gath]

Since maintenance cost are gone (and gold isn't directly used for research anyway), seems to me like city-spamming near luxury resources early on is a very beneficial and strong strategy. The only real penalty is the unhappiness it adds, but the +5 bonus for each luxury resource you improve easily takes care of that. There's also the issue of culture - it's supposedly much harder to develop your culture with a lot of cities, but even then I fear spamming is just too strong and beneficial than earlier civs. The game clearly favors it in my experience.
Any thoughts?

Spamming cities will also pretty much eliminate you from social policies.

 

[gunter]

Spamming cities will also pretty much eliminate you from social policies.

Could you please elaborate it further ?

 

[krunsh]

Could you please elaborate it further ?

I can, +33% to the cost of the social policies for each city.

 

[Phoenixscar]

Only played the demo, but the culture tool-tip explicitly states that having too many cities reduces the chance of a cultural victory.

 

[InterAl]

Yes, but social policies are still not enough. City spamming in civ4 crippled your empire economically (and thus technologically). In civ5 it makes your empire flourish almost in every aspect: economically, demographically (and therefore scientifically), productively and strategically. And it's pretty hard to accumulate culture in any case.
I haven't played the full game yet, but it seems to me this game really favors city spam, way more than any previous civ game.

 

[Beardy Dan]

Also due to the way Happiness works in ciV you will have less golden ages & have to be careful not to upset your millitary.

 

[kaltorak]

One topic below this complains that it is impossible to expand because it is too crippling in civ5

 

[Sonereal]

If you're spamming cities only to get luxuries, then you'll REX you're way into unhappiness once you move up a difficulty and actually have to get resources that aren't luxuries. Not to mention the reduce amount of Golden Ages and culture for social policies.

 

[Rime]

So what is the optimal number of cities for someone aiming at cultural victory, in your opinion? Even just five drive the price of policies up by 132%, which is quite steep already.

 

[Jimbo30]

I'd guess every game should be different, with your start position dictating how you play.

At least I'd love to believe that would be the case. It's clear already that hard choices will have to be made regarding city placement, number of cities and what to build. This is the way the game should be.

 

[InterAl]

One topic below this complains that it is impossible to expand because it is too crippling in civ5

No, because luxury resources are quite abundant.

 

[kaltorak]

No, because luxury resources are quite abundant.

I won't quote the other topic's OP post, because it is a big rant. But here is one of the responses he got:

Each city will cost you 3 already in size 1. But to OP: this kind of game really needs a mechanic that restricts expansion. Otherwise the game will reduce to endless city spam. In civ4, REXing was often still the best option, so I'm glad they have restricted expanding even more.

 

[MkLh]

Yes, but social policies are still not enough. City spamming in civ4 crippled your empire economically (and thus technologically).

That is not true. There are enough examples of Civ4 games with dozens or even hundreds of cities and insane tech rates, rates that never would have been possible for small empires.

Civ4's mechanism only restricted early expanding, and was also quite easy to elude by beelining some key techs and backfill trading. Now it seems that expanding is restricted through the whole game.

 

[Harald]

That is not true. There are enough examples of Civ4 games with dozens or even hundreds of cities and insane tech rates, rates that never would have been possible for small empires.

Civ4's mechanism only restricted early expanding, and was also quite easy to elude by beelining some key techs and backfill trading. Now it seems that expanding is restricted through the whole game.

Hopefully it isn't to restrictive in the late game. It would be kind of sad if it isn't possible to have a huge empire eventually.

 

[moopoo]

So what is the optimal number of cities for someone aiming at cultural victory, in your opinion? Even just five drive the price of policies up by 132%, which is quite steep already.

I read in several places that Jon Shafer prefers 3 cities

 

[InterAl]

That is not true. There are enough examples of Civ4 games with dozens or even hundreds of cities and insane tech rates, rates that never would have been possible for small empires.

Civ4's mechanism only restricted early expanding, and was also quite easy to elude by beelining some key techs and backfill trading. Now it seems that expanding is restricted through the whole game.

I'm talking about early game here. City spam = cities you build. Cities you conquer you don't spam, right?
Civ4 restricted REXing by maintenance. Civ5 favors REXing by favoring luxury resources. In my 100-turn demo empire I had +8 happiness with 7 cities. That was on "King" and after merely 100 turns.

 

[Rime]

Ouch. 3 is way too few, considering how many wonders there are to build and how long units take to produce. Then again, it sounds like a challenge, which is not a bad thing...

I like my empires sprawling and prosperous, though.

 

[Iceciro]

Oh, you can spam cities, sure. Small ones.

City on a resource = 5 happiness, +2 happiness left over. So a size three city.

A size three city doesn't build much of anything. In the best possible circumstance you'll have a whopping six production (two mined hills and a 4-food after civil service farm). If you DON'T stagnate your cities, you will be crippled by unhappy. If you stagnate them until say, they build Colosseums (225 hammers on epic speed) you will be waiting 37 turns to have a city of decent size there, and you'll be hoping desperately someone with a few high-production cities doesn't show up with a herd of guys with pointy sticks and puppet-state your expansions.

The game features measured, careful expansions. Eating single luxury resources with a city placement is a bad idea until your empire is mature. Now, the game changes if you can get two luxuries, or a luxury and a strategic, etc.

The number of cities you place is far, far inferior to making sure your cities are in the right spots.

 

[InterAl]

Oh, you can spam cities, sure. Small ones.

City on a resource = 5 happiness, +2 happiness left over. So a size three city.

A size three city doesn't build much of anything. In the best possible circumstance you'll have a whopping six production (two mined hills and a 4-food after civil service farm). If you DON'T stagnate your cities, you will be crippled by unhappy. If you stagnate them until say, they build Colosseums (225 hammers on epic speed) you will be waiting 37 turns to have a city of decent size there, and you'll be hoping desperately someone with a few high-production cities doesn't show up with a herd of guys with pointy sticks and puppet-state your expansions.

The game features measured, careful expansions. Eating single luxury resources with a city placement is a bad idea until your empire is mature. Now, the game changes if you can get two luxuries, or a luxury and a strategic, etc.

The number of cities you place is far, far inferior to making sure your cities are in the right spots.

City on a resource = size 3. City on 2 resources = size 8. Those luxury resources are very abundant, I had lots of them in my 3 games. And that's without touching various social policies and buildings which further increase your happiness.