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City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    Hm, I saw sg strange, using mod2 v3:
    Great Merchant action gives gold (OK), but also 55 influence points!? Is that OK?
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Yep. Diplo units use same mechanic so they both get buffed to 55. Such is the nature of our gimped molding tools...
     
  3. Pnutmaster

    Pnutmaster Chieftain

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    Easy to rationalize within the framework of the mod, thankfully.
     
  4. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    Let me start with the fact that I feel like this mod changes gameplay for the better by quite a bit.

    I would tone down the production costs on these units a bit, but I think this mechanic is a lot better than putting raw gold into it (though you can still do that via rush buy or the 1000/2000/3000 gold options).

    Are the different unit types producing different amounts of influence? It doesn't seem like they are (and that's probably not a very good mechanic given that bonuses per influence point already scale with era; also scaling amount of influence per era is too much, imo), and the movement point increases alone aren't enough to justify having one of these units per era. I'd consider spacing them out a little bit, with 3 versions or something.

    Couple issues I noticed:
    1. The text for the trade mission still refers to Great Merchants. You may want something more generally worded.

    2. This mod is creating some strangeness for unit icons in Strategic View - Companion Cavalry are showing up as War Chariots, Workers as Spearmen, etc.

    EDIT: I swear I wouldn't be posting feedback if I didn't think you had created something really cool to work off of...

    Unless you built this to work with some no-building-maintenance cost mods, you should probably have a maintenance cost on the +diplomatic unit production building to fit with the rest of the game. I was really excited to be able to build a specialized political city, but it turns out I'm just supposed to spam that building in every city that has some spare production.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Thanks for the feedback!

    Which version of the mod are you using? I toned production costs down quite a bit in the last couple of versions– in which era(s) do you think the costs were too high?

    Influence does not scale (yet) because the modding tools do not yet allow for this. Eventually it will scale (slightly) to encourage tech-ing up to the next unit.

    There are 5 units (one per major era) to help unit costs scale with the era's production bonuses (this was a problem in the early versions, during which there were only 3 units).

    Thanks for noticing the great merchant trade mission text- I'll fix that in the next version.

    Also, the strategic icons are a known issue when using custom artwork- this is related to the modtools and the game (meh).

    Finally, which building (the forum or the foreign office) should have a maintenance cost? Since the forum has a gold bonus per every 5 citizens I felt it might be odd to have a maintenance cost as well. Plus you have to have a forum in every city to build the Foreign Office National Wonder.

    I might add in a medieval-era building diplo building to tie the Foreign Office to so that Forums don't have to be spammed so much – let me know if you have any ideas for names/bonuses etc.

    Thanks again- glad you like it!
    G
     
  6. Drawmeus

    Drawmeus Emperor

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    I'm using "City-State Diplomacy Mod 2.0 (v. 3)" I don't know if that's out of date. It felt a bit slow in the very early game, but I withdraw that feedback, as it's probably good as is if not a bit fast later on.

    Yup. I would be sure to be extremely careful about scaling influence up, as the benefits per point of influence also go up and the build times also go down - you're scaling efficiency at generating CS benefits in 3 ways.

    Unless you could also get a penalty to offset it (faster decay, or more required to be friends/allies), it could be too much.


    This makes sense to me. I wish there was a more satisfying way to scale them than just movement speed, but that probably needs to wait for the C++.

    Harsh.

    The Forum. It would be odd to have maintenance + a gold bonus in most cases, particularly for a straight up gold bonus... but honestly, I don't think the Forum should have a gold bonus. I could see a couple points of culture, but I think when a player sits down and builds a Forum, they should be doing it in order to boost their diplomatic relations, not boost their revenue flow.

    Random aside, the gold per 5 citizens thing would actually be really interesting on a building with a maintenance cost as a way to promote highly developed cities. Right now there are lots of mechanics in the game that make many lightly developed cities good and very few that make highly developed cities good. A maintenance cost of 2 would mean you want a Forum in every size 10+ city that is going to build diplo units and in every size 15+ city period (though it may not be worth the production)... which ICS empires are very poor at producing. It's not a solution, but it's an interesting concept.

    National Wonders are meant as a reward for small empires (large empires need to do much more work to get them), so I would definitely not have a maintenance cost on that, it should be very satisfying to build.

    I don't think the diplomacy is mechanically deep enough to support multiple different bonuses right now, unfortunately... I could see a steeper production cost curve on diplo units and another +% production to offset it and further specialize cities, maybe.

    Is it ok if I incorporate/tweak this mod in a modpack I'm making? You'll be credited 100% with the idea and base implementation if I ever publish.
     
  7. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Gazebo (and anyone else interested)
    So my game crashed - guess it's a sign from the civ gods to update with findings/opinions!

    Since the change of tech for the UN to Mass Media that I self-modded in as suggested works for savegames, I continued the immortal Darius game I described a bunch of posts back.

    Now it's turn 325 or so, I've been second in score behind Biz Markie for most of the game (runaway AI on his own continent), but catching up now. I was 8-10 techs away from Mass Media when Biz built the UN around 1875, making me dislike the UN move *at first* as I thought it was too early. Since then we have had 3 rounds of voting, Biz inching towards the 10 vote requirement with 8 in the last round, Siam with 5 and myself with 4. I haven't been idle, however, and have stolen one of the German CSs and am about to get another two or three (I hope:mischief:). Once I finally destroy Nappy, who I have been at war with since turn 50 (and has refused peace countless times) I should be able to secure a couple more - assuming the "allies after death" bug doesn't show up.
    I said I didn't like the UN move "at first" above. However, having all these rounds of voting is more like the diplo victory in (yes) civ 4, in that it adds a lot of drama! And IMO, it's more interesting to have it occur during the modern rather than future era. So at this point I support the move.:thumbsup:


    Other minor notes:
    *To update, the minorcivgoldpercent value of 175 seems to still be just the right amount, most of the CSs in the game have kept a decent military, and have even participated in warring, which is great.
    *Do the diplo units upgrade? I captured one of the earlier types and being unable to pass through foreign lands was a little frustrating. (Though I admit that I didn't bring it into my own territory to check.)
    *Also, I would like to share - again;) - that I think the lategame diplo units are too cheap. They seemed balanced until the modern era, but I would bump them up a bit at that point (the last two types, I believe).
    *Little thing, but could you update the description on page one to describe the promotions each diplo unit gets and to note that the Foreign Office is a national wonder? The former for reference and the latter for clarity, it was a bit confusing the first time I fired up the mod.

    Finally, I'd like to say that I agree with Drawmeus in the post above on pretty much every point he makes. In particular, the point about the Forum. I have been wondering about the gold bonus for the Forum as well for a while now. It became a high priority building for my puppets in my game because of the gold boost and I'm also not sure what the rational behind it is. I get that you wanted to add a further incentive to build it, but I agree that a culture boost may be more appropriate.
    The only thing I *somewhat* disagree with Drawmeus about is
    Given the amount of sparring for CSs that I have had in my games, I don't think this is necessary.

    Well, hats off as always, keep up the good work, Gazebo!:)

    PS - Just want to say that until the SDK becomes available, after a couple of tweaks I really think this mod will be pretty well polished! If only we could convince Jooyo to put it into CCMAT:D Maybe we should start a campaign...
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'll incorporate your (and Drawmeus's) suggestions, especially regarding unit cost balancing) and I'll tweak the forum. What's your final verdict on the UN? Perhaps move it one more tech up the tree (so that it doesn't pop in 1875, but rather 1900-1915?).

    Also, units don't upgrade, as I wasn't sure it was worth the time or $$. I can add it in quickly if you want- not a big XML addition.

    Finally, I'll fix the pg. 1 text.

    Finally finally, I'm not sure this mod fits in CCMAT because its such an overhaul of the game. Some people may not want it, whereas CCMAT's more about tweaks and minor changes/UI upgrades. This is a pretty significant change. But that's up to joyoo to decide, not me.

    Thanks for your feedback, everyone! You guys are awesome! I'll do my best to put v.4 out tonight.

    G
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Feel free to incorporate- just let me know what tweaks you make so that, if you like them, I might add them as well!
    G
     
  10. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    I'm not sure it's necessary, but what's really important is that I don't think there's an applicable tech on the next column. I suppose a new tech could be added, but that's probably a lot of work. On second thought, what would probably work best would be to move (and rename?) Globalization to Ecology's spot and simply switch them.

    If it's not too hard, I think it could be useful - or if possible have them autoupgrade?

    Sweet, can't wait!
    I'm sure you know this, but CCMAT has different levels of mod moddability (sp?): integrated, modmods and modular tweaks - some of which are deactivated by default. So if CSDM (I think it's about time we started using an acronym, don't you?) were to be included, I'd expect it would be a deactivated modmod. (But as you said, of course it's up to Jooyo:))
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I could always increase the cost of the UN to compensate for its earlier availability. Maybe by 15%?

    Also, I need data from you and Drawmeus concerning unit costs- how much are diplomats and ambassadors (on average) costing you? Also, are you using economy mods that boost production on mines, lumbermills, etc.? In vanilla an ambassador should require around 5 turns of production. I can buff this to 8 if build times are too low with economy mods (most people use them, so might as well plan for it).

    I'll look into the upgrading mechanic tonight and see what I find. It may be late tonight before I post the update, but I SHOULD get it out tonight.

    Two more questions: should the Foreign Office remain a national wonder, or should it be a normal building? Second, for the forum, should we have a gold maintenance cost in addition to the gold-per-citizen mechanic or simply nix the GPC altogether in favor of a +1-2 culture (or maybe even a culture-per-citizen bonus?). I like creative, dynamic buildings more than static ones, in general. Most vanilla buildings are boring, static things. Everything, in my opinion, should be based on population size for cities. Perhaps in another mod....

    Send me your data!
    G
     
  12. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Wouldn't hurt, especially with the additional benefit (three free diplo units) it has with this mod.

    I am using CCMAT, which has some (comparatively) small production buffs, basically +1h for mines. Also, I'm playing with Darius, so spending a fair amount of time in GAs. In my production cities, ambassadors were taking about 2 turns, IIRC. I doubt it is 5 turns without the buffs, but I will check the game later to determine what the turn count is without a GA.

    Regarding unit costs, I did some number comparisons and this is the conclusion I reached:
    Messenger - Cost: 65 (unchanged)
    Envoy - Cost: 90 (unchanged)
    Emissary - Cost: 140 (+5 from current)
    Diplomat - Cost: 215 (+15)
    Ambassador - Cost: 305 (+30)
    (Has a somewhat less gradual curve of 25, 50, 75 and 90 for differentials than what it is now.) I haven't tested it, but this looks good on paper to me atm. Let me know what you think.

    Work was slow today, so I had a bit of a brainstorm:D. Here are my ideas, do with them what you will:

    *The Foreign Office has always been pretty underwhelming to me. I say keep it as a national wonder, but lower the prod bonus % for diplo units and give it an additional effect. Two ideas so far:
    1. When possible (ie, the SDK is released) have the FO increase influence generated by diplo units by 10-15%.
    2. Have it unlock a promotion for diplo units: Ignore Rough Terrain, Paradrop as suggested recently (though obviously the FO would have to be pushed back considerably so I don't know about this one) or *maybe* the May Enter Rival Territory promotion. I think the latter may throw off the balance of the mod, but it would certainly make the FO very necessary for any civ attempting a diplo win, so it could be interesting.

    *Idea for an added World Wonder: Take the United Front policy from Order for it with perhaps a buff to the penalty up to 50%. (It's the "other civs influence decays faster" SP) I think this would make a very interesting and effective WW! Consider replacing the United Front effect with a buff to unit gifts, as that mechanic is incredibly underpowered (ie, "Every gifted unit to a City State results in 7 influence points, up from 2") - it would fit the concept behind the SP pretty well.

    *Agree 100% about dynamic buildings. I think the forum would be an excellent place for a dynamic culture building, and it makes a lot of sense to me: Culture literally leads to Social Policy in the game, so the forum should have a part in that as it is a political building, and the higher the pop the more people participating. Agree it should have a maintenance cost as well.

    Also, if you want to PM the art images to me, I might have a crack at them to make them fit a little better with the aesthetics of the game.

    Hope these ideas are useful to you! I certainly had a lot of fun coming up with them.:)
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I got off work early today and posted v4 just as you posted this! I accelerated costs just a little more than you (145 for emissary, 235 for diplomat and 325 for ambassador) but we'll see. I may bring it down just a hair in v5. I also made the UN move official and boosted cost to 1200 (was built once in 1920, once in 1917 in the two test sims I played). Finally, Ambassadors are now at Mass Media (keeping them with the UN) and Diplomats were moved to Railroads (they were too close together beforehand). Other changes are just small tweaks and language changes (Trade Missions are now finally called Diplomatic Missions).

    For the Foreign Office, I'd have to do some major tweaking to have it unlock a promotion- not too much work, so I'll definitely look into it for v5. I especially like the 'enter rival territory' promotion for diplomatic units- makes them 'neutral.' I also might buff the +50% to +75% so that the city with the FO becomes a diplo unit making machine, allowing for intense specialization without tying up a bunch of cities making diplo units. I'll look into your promotion idea, as its my favorite idea so far for the FO.

    I like the idea of moving the United Front to a Wonder- perhaps it should be moved to the Kremlin (symbol of 20th century communism?)? Or maybe I can mod in red square or something like that...good ideas.

    I'm not sure I can mess with the 'gift unit' mechanic dynamically, as it is a hard-coded value. We'd have to think of something else for now.

    Finally, the forum cannot have a culture-per-citizen bonus because this mechanic isn't coded into the game. I tried it and it didn't do anything, so meh. Make that #146 on my 'things I need to do when the SDK comes out' list. So, for now, it has +2 culture. Lame.

    Check out v4 and see if anything looks awry.

    G
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Strike that - I added your FO 'Rival Territory' idea to v4 because it was awesome. Re-uploading v4 with it added.
     
  15. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Awesome! So fast, it's almost like I know how to mod myself!:eek::lol:

    So is there any information about when Firaxis will release the SDK? It's getting more frustrating every day. I assume they want to patch the game to a more balanced state before they release it..

    The changes look great, can't wait to load it up.:cool:
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No word yet on the SDK. Soon hopefully.

    Also, the art files should be accessible in the front-page download. Feel free to tinker with them.

    Finally, you can see what I added if you look at the buildings.xml- it wasn't hard (just modeled it on the Himeji Castle bonus and added a UNITCOMBAT_DIPLOMACY tag to the RIVAL_TERRITORY promotion so that it adds it to the diplo units when built.
     
  17. lumat83

    lumat83 Chieftain

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    Hello

    Wonderfull mod. But I've a little problem : I would like to use the R.E.D modpack and it seem not compatible : The units scale and formations don't change.

    Is there a solution to correct this ?



    Thank for your help
     
  18. binaryman

    binaryman Chieftain

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    Good mod! Thanks for your hard work.
    And I suggest mod the maritime city-state's bonus. Decrease the food they supplied. How a city-state can afford so many other city food?
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Lumat83,
    Try this: Uncheck all of your mods in the mod select/disable window in Civ5. When rechecking your mods, make sure to check mine before you check R.E.D. It seems (based on my very rude experiments) that mod load order is determined by the order in which the mods are clicked.

    If this doesn't help, let me know.

    G
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Binaryman,

    There are some great city-state balancing mods by Thalassicus and others which do this– why not download one of those? I strongly recommend CCMAT, as it is modular in what you can turn on and off within the mod.

    In my opinion, since CSD2 requires you to spend so much more time and energy making alliances, I think the maritime bonuses actually work quite well. But to each his/her own.

    Take care,
    G
     

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