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City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. TheHarshax

    TheHarshax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    I'm curious what SP's you had in play. I agree that late game can be easy, if you optimize for diplomacy. The biggest reason, is that many of the quests are for Great Persons, which can be fulfilled by other CS's if you have the full Patronage tree unlocked. The next most common quest, in my opinion, is build such-and-such wonder. If you're a production powerhouse, this is easier too. There are three other quests: build road, find natural wonder, find Civ. These are nominal. Building roads is probably the biggest investment for any civ, because those roads cost $ per turn. The other two require exploration. If you are going for a diplomacy victory, you must put a priority on exploration. I've found that you don't get offered quests from CS's until you a) meet them, and b) establish a minimum amount of influence. The best Diplomacy strategy is to explore, find CS's, get $ from meeting them, send at least 1 envoy and then be pestered forever more by their quests. Once you have most of the map uncovered, the two dominant quests are Great Persons and Wonders, followed by Resource requests.

    This mod (which is one of my must-haves by the way) compounds the values of wonders and great persons, by giving you the both a City State influence bonus (food, culture, units), as well as the benefit of said building or person. Therefore, I'd be inclined to reduce the frequency of City State quests.

    Now, I've specifically attempted a diplo victory as Alexander, on a small map, King Difficulty. My early game strategy was similar to a cultural victory so I could a) unlock all of Patronage, and b) build the Foreign office. Once established, I started modest expansion and bee lined all diplomacy techs and the WTO. By end game, I was popping influence all over the place because of GP generation, and cranking out wonders faster than anyone else because of my strong tech lead (Patronage + Freedom + Reason + Landed Nobility). I also use CCMAT as mentioned earlier.

    This mod makes Diplo victories as decision intensive as the Domination victory, and I applaud its design wholeheartedly.

    ideas:
    1) Reduce quest frequency
    1a) Quests to generate Great Person requires that you gift Great Person to that City State, in turn, get HUGE Influence benefit.
    2) Create ability to gift a resource to a Civ for influence
    2a) Specific resources give more influence than general ones. Strategic gain greater influence over Military, subject to era necessity (iron less useful in Modern era). Luxury greater influence over Cultural and Maritime.
    3) Ability to sell resources for fixed GPT to city states. (It sucks to have no customers, because the AI is spamming cities and has locked all the resources down)
    4) Gift workers
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
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    12,214
    Location:
    Aquidneck Island
    Thanks for the very detailed write-up. I'll look into reducing quest frequency, as it does become an issue during the late-game. Right now, I'm still working on the AI to try to encourage it to STOP sending all of its diplos to just one or two CSs.

    Your ideas are also cool, and will be very feasible once we get full access to the SDK.

    Also, the mod seems to be slipping...off...the...front...page... we can't let that happen!

    All glory to the HypnoCSD2!
    G
     
  3. Yanikin_Tinkard

    Yanikin_Tinkard Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    118
    That is because you have done such a good job. You mod is complete for most purposes until the SDK.

    See your supposed to drag your projects out until the last minute of the deadline and make it look like you saved the day.... er... well maybe.

    Happy Monday; you did do a great job though.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
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    Thanks! Its almost done– I'll release a mildly tweaked version later in the week (perhaps next Monday– I'm in the finals crunch right now) that addresses some small balancing issues (WTO too cheap, etc.).

    I'm going to laugh a lot when the ideas we have developed for CSD2 can't be implemented using the SDK for some inane and possibly arcane reason. Let's hope that's not the case.

    G
     
  5. Dunkah

    Dunkah Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,182
    Location:
    Just north of Boston
    Great Mod...

    Using with the CCMAT mod. No issues as of yet...

    Thanks for all of the hard work.

    What are the chances that the boys at 2K or Firaxis use this for a new Supplement?
     
  6. sammual

    sammual Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    17
    I love your mod but for some reason all the unit icons on the strategy map other then Warrior are wrong whenever I use your mod.
     
  7. Yanikin_Tinkard

    Yanikin_Tinkard Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    118
    Stratagy map is bad for getting icons correct. I don't know if anyone has figured that out yet.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
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    Yes- perhaps the new patch coming out soon will address this. I hope I'm not out of the country when it hits (leaving for two weeks soon). If so, CSD may be AWOL until I get back and correct it to work with the patch. Just a forewarning.

    If it does hit while I'm out, I would greatly appreciate a few of you trying CSD and seeing if you can compile a list of problems- this would make the patch turnaround time much, much quicker, as I won't have to playtest as much (I guess this is the same philosophy as Firaxis, amiright?) :sad:

    G
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    To quote Professor Farnsworth:

    "A man can dream, can't he? A man can dream..."
     
  10. Yanikin_Tinkard

    Yanikin_Tinkard Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    118
    One can hope they fix the stratagy map. I was playing one were all my workers were archers??!?

    I think a lot of games get released in Beta no a days and the end user tests them. :( Look at WoW though; they are still taking user created Addons and putting them in game. I wouldn't call it as bad a beta the whole time though.
     
  11. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    412
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, US
    CCMAT includes Thalassicus' Balance mods which has a diplomacy component.
    You might want to consider taking a look at that particular xml to check for possible unintended consequences concerning gold gift multipliers, etc. I just started using his combined pack (which is newer than CCMAT's) and haven't brought CS Diplomacy into the picture yet, but I did take notice that there are changes to gold gifts, CS attack quests and possibly others. Will post back after I take a look later today or tomorrow.

    Of course, when the patch bomb goes off this could all be moot :)
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Whew! I just finished a major project. Hooray.

    Anyways, sorry I've been in-and-out for the past week or so.

    My plan (tentatively) is to create three versions of this mod:

    1.) Standard (what you are all playing and loving right now)

    2.) CTP compatible (boost gold costs, etc.)

    3.) Stripped (takes out all CS/AI modifiers and non-critical AI tweaks- this will work with CCMAT and others)

    What do you think?

    For v.6, I'm not going to change much, just bump the infrequency of quests up, increase WTO cost slightly and maybe rearrange some of the artwork to reduce file-size.

    By the way, has anyone actually used or built the WTO? I thought it was fun (paradropping ambassadors FTW), but I'm biased.
     
  13. Yanikin_Tinkard

    Yanikin_Tinkard Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
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    Wow, that is above and beyond for 3 types. I guess though for the C2P version it isn't hard; just some numbers.

    I never did WTO. My diplo game way back I had all the CS's so close. I have been deep in C2P lately, than Cat came out for WoW and friend got me running around there once in while. So much gaming, so little time. :)

    congrats on project. My white board in my cube is full. . . :(
     
  14. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Chieftain

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    Maybe you could address mod compatibility in a more general sense by breaking your xml down further so it's inherently more descriptive and easy to 'switch off'. It would be easier for you to mange as well, I'd imagine. The mod collection is only going to grow.

    On that note, Gazebo, can you recommend a tool or method for analyzing xml elements across multiple files (find changes to common elements, etc)? Since file organization is pretty much arbitrary with CiV, something to alleviate the eyeball strain would be quite welcome :)
     
  15. Yanikin_Tinkard

    Yanikin_Tinkard Chieftain

    Joined:
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    http://www.wingrep.com/

    They are all just "text" files.

    Find across multiple folders, files, types of files only, all files, case sensitive, whole words only.

    Replace across same.
     
  16. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Chieftain

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    Thanks Yanikan. Grep is nice when you know what you're looking for and I've looked at it but generally stick to integrated utilities (eg Dopus) for finding duplicate files and strings. The problem here is not being familiar with all of the available strings and having wade into huge blocks of text to learn anything. What I'm after is something that shows an aggregate view of xml elements so it's easier to find conflicts and have a clear view of everything that's in play for a collection of mods/files. I'd imagine I can do that with Access or something similar, but thought there might be a more focused non commercial application that I was missing. If anyone did any Total War modding, there was a nice community developed DB manager for that file system that displayed an aggregate view and even allowed editing. Something like that would be brilliant.
     
  17. Yanikin_Tinkard

    Yanikin_Tinkard Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I'm not sure I know what you are asking for than. Only other thing I can think of is notepadd++

    I do a lot of coding at work with that. It has a compare to show to files at once?
     
  18. Seek

    Seek Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
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    3,292
    @Gazebo, remember this?

    On another thread, Valkrionn outlined how to do it if you're still interested:

    :D
    (Don't worry, I thanked him!)
     
  19. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Chieftain

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    Yes, I use that as well. Compare plugin is pretty handy. I was looking for something that generated a formatted table where you could load up the default xml and then aggregate that with your mod folder. As I said, I suspect I can do this with Access, but I'm not current on DB applications. I'll ask over in the tools forum as I don't want to gunk up Gazebo's thread. Just something that came to mind while getting CS Diplomacy properly merged with the Balance mods :)
     
  20. Horace

    Horace Likes to ski

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
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    Im not sure, I probably had some patronage but probably not the entire tree in that game.

    I think I was mainly getting influence via wonders and letting trade deals expire for a turn or 2, then getting the connect xx to your network thing and redoing the deal.

    I just find that I barely build diplo units late game and if I do its not really much effort. In the early game its more of a tactical choice whether to commit 10 turns or whatever for just bumping yourself into friend territory.

    For me, it would be nice to see:

    Harsher AI diplo penatlies for stealing their CS

    Some harder more rewarding quests (capute xx city) - I know this may not be possible yet

    The work req late game to build diplomacy levels increased
     

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