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City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    And so the next problem begins. Running test games shows that AI civs earn thousands in gold and don't know how to spend it. Once they buy all available plots, they don't start purchasing units/buildings like a human would. I tried adding in new priorities, but they didn't change this problem.

    If anyone has any ideas, let me know. We may have to reinstate Gifts of Gold for the AI, perhaps making the gifts entail anywhere from 2-5k. This would keep the late-game gold glut from harming the economy and we could reduce the gold-influence multiplier to keep it from becoming a super-influence bomb.

    As it stands now, the mod does work- this is the only glaring problem.
    G

    Edit: Another possibility might be a dramatic scaling of research agreement costs (thousands of gold in the modern era).
     
  2. Ymir9

    Ymir9 Warlord

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    Of the two I think I like the Research agreement scaling idea better.
    What I've done already on my end is to double the base cost of buying plot tiles, which seems to help for the early game (and in my opinion improve balance). It would be more extreme, but is it possible to add lump gold costs when building improvements like in IV?

    The perfect thing of course would be to develop an espionage system the AI could sink its gold in...:mischief:
     
  3. Baleur

    Baleur Prince

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    NO NO NO! Modders cant (read, shouldnt) do that, then what will the expansions feature, if not lost content from Civ4? Poor firaxis! :goodjob:
     
  4. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    I guess let's stay within frames of the mod - don't start new items like espionage or whatever.
    Only fix what is problem, i.e. this gold issue...

    1.
    Make the AI spend gold logically, e.g. on units, buildings.
    2.
    If 1. cannot be done (?), then yes, make what AI spends money on cost more:
    tiles, research agreements...

    Another thing might be:
    Isn't it that AI has big pile of money only on higher difficulties, where AI gets discount?
    Try run tests on Prince, King...
     
  5. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    and I want to ask (again): will the mod work together with CCMAT? :)
    As I plan to use that with this in the weekend...
     
  6. Daft73

    Daft73 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    I currently use the 2 mods together V.Soma, have not had any issuses...yet :crazyeye:
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Ymir9,

    Did you update these two files:

    Code:
    <Update>
    			<Set Value="200"/>
    			<Where Name="PLOT_INFLUENCE_DISTANCE_MULTIPLIER"/>
    		</Update>
    		<Update>
    			<Set Value="200"/>
    			<Where Name="PLOT_INFLUENCE_RING_COST"/>
    		</Update>
    Also, I cannot fathom why the AI can't/won't purchase buildings/units, as it has tags for them already built in:
    Code:
    <Row Name="AI_GOLD_PRIORITY_UNIT">
    			<Value>300</Value>
    		</Row>
    		<Row Name="AI_GOLD_PRIORITY_DEFENSIVE_BUILDING">
    			<Value>400</Value>
    		</Row>
    I've tried bumping the value up and reducing it to zero, with no effect. I'm at a complete loss. There must be a way!!!


    Edit: I found the plot_base_cost tag, which is the right one to update. hooray.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    On Prince, Bismarck had 18278G in 2028 :eek:

    Also, yeah, it works with CCMAT.



    More Updates: Running two more simulations results in astronomically high gold amounts (even with increased plot costs and 5x more expensive research agreements). Problem seems to be that the AI is insanely good at making money via trade routes and city growth. Washington had +250gpt in 1997. Ouch.

    Furthermore, one civ generally distances itself from the rest economically, meaning that even if it wanted to do a research agreement, it can't because no one else can cough up the money.

    Considering implementing a 5000g influence bomb for AI to use to spend their cash. Sure it is unfair to the player, but the AI isn't spending the money, which, consequently, is just as unfair (albeit flipped).

    Finally, anyone else noticed that the AI is really slow at teching? 1997 and Washington was just researching railroads! What gives?
    G
     
  9. Ymir9

    Ymir9 Warlord

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    Are we sure the high gold amounts aren't just a result of the new patch?
    The AI sure is a lot more protective with trade deals now for one thing.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Perhaps, though it is still astronomically high. I'll run a vanilla game and see what the final totals are.
     
  11. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    Pls make AI good at teching... perhaps AI should concentrate more on techs and less than gold...
    (I am just spitting out ideas... :))
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    There's no easy way to encourage the AI to 'tech-up' without overhauling the flavor system (terrifying) or simply playing against the AI on harder levels. Its a fundamental problem with the AI, not this mod.

    Gold levels in a vanilla sim were tolerable (1-2k), so gifting is the critical problem here. I think I might re-enable gifting for humans and AI and make the gifts very expensive (1k, 2.5k, 5k), so as to discourage abuse. What do you guys think?

    G
     
  13. V. Soma

    V. Soma long time civ fan

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    So both gifting to the CSs nad use of the diplo units - to get influence both ways?

    Er, can it be so that you can gift only CSs that you first have sent diplomat to? :)
    Or, even better, can give money gift only together with sending a diplomat there at the same time?

    So with money AND diplomat you can have extra lot of inluence gained?
    But not simple by giving money from distance?
    (is this clear what I want to say...?)
     
  14. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Prince

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    Is there some method to make gold gift delivery dependent on the diplomat completing his mission? Great Merchants add gold on mission completion, so, perhaps a negative value for diplomats. That way gold gifting and diplomat usage aren't divergent options. Of course, there would be the issue of verifying the required gold amount is present for the diplo mission button to be active (as well as what the AI would do with that scenario).

    edit: @V.Soma - didn't see your post :)

    My concern with a completely separate gold gift would be that the diplomat would lose value and as V.Soma states, the instant Western Union thing comes back into play and negates distance.

    edit2: 'Purchase only' for diplomats? Would the AI go for this given it's bias against buying units?
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We can't make diplo units purchase only because the AI won't buy them. Plus, that's not much better than gold gifting.

    We can't do negative values because the <BaseGold> tag for the merchant mission has to have a positive value.

    My feeling about gold gifting is that, if we make it astronomically high (5k), it won't play too big of a role for humans because most people will spend their money other ways before they gift that much. I might even change the wording for the 'Large Gift' and make it something like 'Build an Embassy' or 'Royal Visit'– something to give it flavor and make it feel less like Western Union.

    This is all just a failsafe until the DLL is released. Once that happens, I'll work on the AI some more.

    G
     
  16. Pnutmaster

    Pnutmaster Chieftain

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    If we reenable gift giving for the AI, will the AI ever use its diplomats?

    Perhaps there is a way to lower the amount of influence conferred by gifts? Make it so insubstantial that it effectively becomes tribute over generations?
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI will use diplomats with gold gifting because they were before I disabled in in v13.

    I can also dramatically increase the gold-influence multiplier to reduce the value of the gold-influence exchange. Make it 5k=100 influence (as opposed to 1k=200 influence).
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    What do you guys think?

    It seems to solve the problem of money, at least for now.
     
  19. heinous_hat

    heinous_hat Prince

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    I think it's a reasonable solution. Diplomats, as they are, also function as a something of a spy (for recon) if you choose, so there's a perk not available when using cash.

    On icons: I actually appreciate how easy it is to distinguish the current diplo icon. More variety would be nice (love Hank K :)) I think the failing with some of Firaxis' current icons is that they're too ambiguous at smaller sizes. Your default choice is..well...iconic. It has good color contrast and doesn't just blend together at small size. If you're still working on it next week, I'd be happy to chip in some comps (going out of town for a wedding) . Either way, I'd say it's a good idea to stick with that strong differentiation between foreground and background when putting it together.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I could also just take the same icon and simply change the background for each one (red, purple, blue, green, etc.)

    Will continue to test and test and test– I'm sure this mod will be a WIP well into the time when Firaxis releases the DLL.

    Feel free to run some tests in your spare time using the FireTuner (100 turns, repeat, 100 turns, repeat).

    Thanks again for your support! :goodjob:
     

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