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City states are helpless, AI too aggressive towards them.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Kyro, Aug 31, 2017.

  1. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    They really can't defend themselves for some reason. They don't upgrade their units. They parade their weakness in the streets with their warriors in the Industrial Era. They don't build military units matching the era. They don't fortify their troops to withstand attacks and instead blindly lash out like what barbarians do.

    It's almost like City States were made for the AI to conquer because AI's level of aggression against them is off the charts. They conquer them as and and when they like, whenever they like, and the city states just let them.

    Remember a time when allying with many city states usually denotes a peaceful. diplomatic game? Now the more allied City States you have, the more you have to go to war to protect them because AI's just looking for every chance to devour them.

    How did the developers manage to turn a significant element that represents peace and diplomacy into an excuse for war? Talk about the futility of diplomacy in Civ 6.

    You can't ask the AI to stop, you can't bribe them into stopping like in Civ 5, you can't even declare a protectorate war if the aggressor is a declared friend/ally. The AI simply does not consider the fact that it is invading your City State, in fact it would appear that they're doing it on purpose.

    How stupid is it that a player should avoid making friends if they want to keep their city states?

    How stupid is it that given the amount of investment required to protect city states, the player is better off using that force to conquer the AI?

    At one point I thought to do an experiment on Emperor and see how bad City States were at defending themselves. Earlier on England(Declared Friend) had attempted to conquer Toronto, of which I was Suzerain of and I promptly levied the city state's troops and surrounded the city state. England couldn't get past those Meat Shields for 30 turns. Near the end of the levy I upgraded them all to the Information Era(Mechanized Infantry, Helicopters.)

    Guess how well they fared against Redcoats and Field Cannons later on? They lost all the advanced troops after a brief struggle and I had to step in with a protectorate war. Mechanized Infantry and Helicopters lost against Redcoats and Field Cannons. How? Reckless attacking without fortifying and healing that's how. They simply don't heal their troops in war, like Barbarians.

    I'm sick and tired of having to surround my beloved City States with meat shields to protect them from "friends". I guess I'm more sick of how everything is so war centric in Civ 6. I've attached a couple of screenshots below for a different "friend" in the same game who loved attacking my city states. She was at it since the Medieval Era and my vanguard were initially horsemen.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. oedali

    oedali King

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    There's a mod I use called Tougher City States that gives them extra units to begin with. It helps a little in ancient/Classica age
     
  3. cazaderonus

    cazaderonus Actual Dad.

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    There s one very good thing about this though. It gives tons of opportunity for a positive diplo modifier to lower your warmongering.

    Fully agree though
     
  4. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    As it stands I have edited codes myself to give City States swordsmen from the beginning. Saves many of them in the ancient and classical era; but they don't keep up with the tech pace so they still get eaten easily once AI gets knights.

    Another unintended side effect that I find quite exploitative is that because AI can't figure out that the player is protecting a City State with meat shields, they are perpetually stuck trying find an opening into the city state to no avail and consequently that keeps their entire army busy doing the voodoo dance around it; which means they can't declare war on you with the same army. As far as perpetual goes I think circling from the Medieval to the Information Era is quite long.

    It's funny how a fake peace can be achieved just by predicting which of your City States AI is going to invade and just keep them circling for the rest of the game.
     
  5. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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  6. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    I'm already using my own modifications to give City States swordsmen from the spawn, it's just not sufficient after the classical Era because they suck at War more than the AI Civilizations. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.
     
  7. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    in my games they always upgrade their units. last game one cs had about 10 units and they all came after me when the sob next door DOW me :mad:
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  8. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    Well, with a minimal word shuffling, the statement in the title can be transformed into one that is no less true: "AI is helpless, HP too aggressive towards them" (HP stands for 'Human Player').

    In the words of a great fictional character, 'the abused always kicks downwards'. With that in mind, it can be said that AI, after being constantly bullied by HP (or in dreadful anticipation of that), is just looking for a weaker opponent to let off the steam - oh, look a city state! So the city states are the last in Game's great chain. Unless there's a barbarian camp around there that they could victimise.
    :)
     
  9. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    How hard would it be to give city states free walls? That would 100% stop the AI until they finally bring catapults. I'm afraid that giving them tons of free units might have unintended consequences
     
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  10. Kyro

    Kyro Prince

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    Tried to mod that in but the function for giving free buildings is lumped together for all Civilizations instead of being separate for City States and major Civs. To give them free walls at the start will mean to give everyone free walls. The downside of giving City States extra units at the start is that Barbarians are nearly non-existent thanks to City States hunting them down and it also causes them to meet other Civilizations first much earlier rather than the player. (City State explores more and becasue AI has extra units/cities on higher difficulties it gives them an even greater chance of beating players to free meeting envoys.).

    Giving them extra bonuses at the start also does not deal with the root issue which is the fact that City States use Barbarian AI when it comes to combat and their randomness/reluctance to upgrade/produce military units. Also it would appear that some City States just refuse to build defenses or train more units for some reason.
     
  11. antimony

    antimony Warlord

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    In my current game I was surprised to see one CS raze another CS... well, indirectly.

    Egypt declared war on me. I send troops to liberate Buenos Aires which Egypt had taken earlier, but Kumasi, one of the CS I was suzerain of, got there first. I was thinking "ok, well at least they're going to liberate it", but after they took the city from Egypt, it was just gone.
     
  12. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    Totally agree with the OP.

    It's exasperating to see all those "unmet player has been defeated" messages in the first 100 turns or so, indicating city-states are getting conquered en masse, when you cannot even try to help them.

    In Civ5 the city-states began to hate you if you conquered too many of them, meaning you getting their bonuses became much harder. I don't think there are any similar penalties in Civ6, no? There should be, imo. Conquer two or more city-states and your envoy accumulation should drop significantly, or something like that.

    You could also gift units to other players in Civ5, but not in Civ6. I think you should be able to gift units to city-states.
     
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  13. WankIT

    WankIT Chieftain

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    What i have done is that i pay for the use of their units and then purposely get them slaughtered. Sometimes they have close to 20 units. After they are destroyed they start building more advanced basic units. Then they start spewing again ancient units. So i give up. Would be nice to be able to gift units like in civs past. Or be able to sell unita which is a new concept
     
  14. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    The easiest thing to do would be allowing their units to automatically upgrade when they get the required tech (maybe AI should get free upgrades too?). City states should also never require resources for any unit, so they can build reasonable defenses regardless of their placement on the map. I wouldn't even be against free walls, which also upgrade at each relevant tech, for them at the start of the game. Conquering city states is currently the dominant strategy, outside of some pathological cases, so you don't need to worry so much about envoys.

    Conquering them should be much more difficult and the players and AI should be forced to compete for suzerains and use their bonuses as intended. AI with early conquest flavor like Aztec, Macedon, and Germany (the +7 would actually be a relevant bonus this way) could still attack them, but other AI and the player would be forced to curry favor and defend them.
     
  15. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    If they always get the latest units instantly, then the option to levy their military should be scrapped. And even then I'd worry that they could be too powerful for their size if they actually attack a civ as part of a civ vs civ war.

    City-states should be given means to defend themselves better in early game. Free walls or more units. And what I'd consider is that when a city-state is attacked by any civ, there would be a question to every civ that have discovered that city-state that "would you like to aid this attacked city-state?" And you could either gift them some of your units or gold (which they could spend on units).
     
  16. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

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    In regards to levying or military assistance being too powerful perhaps they should only be available if you used a causus belli other than Formal War?
     
  17. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    Not hard. My Pyu city-states get free ancient walls. It would be easy to add it in for all city-states, as well as free wall upgrades.
     
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  18. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    As always, whenever I have a good idea for a mod, I find that TCS has already done it ;)
     
  19. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am. Moderator

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    This would make a great stand-alone TCS mod. At the very least I'm curious what the code is that you used as this was something a few of us tried to do last year after the game's release.
     
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  20. PYITE

    PYITE Prince

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    [QUOTE="stinkubus, post: 14859833, member: 282947"City states should also never require resources for any unit, so they can build reasonable defenses regardless of their placement on the map.[/QUOTE]

    They don't need strategic resources to upgrade. There is a line of code that removes the requirement for City States.
     
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