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[R&F] City-States can actually attack!

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by SupremacyKing2, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Still on my old computer but just had to share this screenshot from my current game as Germany (small map, continents, standard speed, prince level). I took advantage of a Heroic Age to attack Japan to my North. I've taken Osaka and Tokyo. I got a military starting an attack on Takamatsu and my army that took Tokyo is making its way up towards Kyoto although I think I might divert it to the Japanese coastal city on the left of the screen (under Mobilization).

    But check out my allied city-state Vilnius sending a pretty good military to attack Japan's capital, Kyoto.!!! :eek:Looks to me like the AI can do pretty well when it wants to.

    upload_2019-1-13_15-41-40.png
     
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  2. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Used to be a city there. The CS would have burned down all of their cities besides the capital if I didn't stop them.

    Better screenshot, was a few turns later
    Edit:
    Spoiler :
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  3. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Nice! Thanks for sharing.
     
  4. Melliores

    Melliores Chieftain

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    Yep, City States can actually send their whole military to swarm one city and they will not wait for any siege equipment. They are merciless in that regard, I have lost more than one city to them, since they always raze them by default.
     
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  5. Starwars

    Starwars Warlord

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    Yeah, amusingly enough city-states can actually be a way bigger threat to you than enemy civs in terms of combat if they happen to be somewhat closeby and you get into a war with them. I guess it's due to the AI decisionmaking being too complicated beind the scenes so it usually ends up mostly feeling indecisive, whereas city-states can just be straight up murderous and thus concentrate their efforts on that one target.
    No idea if that's what actually goes on but it just feels like that at times. It's kinda the same thing when the AI attacks at the beginning of games, it moves with a lot more purpose.
     
  6. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

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    I have many times delayed a war because a city-state that the enemy was suz of was more of a threat than the civ themselves and I wasn't yet able to handle the army they were going to send at me.

    The way city states fight tend to be much more focused and ruthless. Once they hit a certain amount they just go right for the jugular the way the AI never will.
     
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  7. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Kinda makes you wonder why the AI civs are not as ruthless. Maybe the devs purposely softened up the AI civs so that they won't wipe human players off the map so easily?
     
  8. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    A little bit related to this thread I wanted to share my screenshot of a city state conquering another city state. I never seen that before (or never noticed it before). I had no idea this was possible.

    Unfortunately the city state is gone, but trust me, it was there. That empty space inside of Brussel's units used to be a city state. And yes, I was in the process of converting it to my religion.

     
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  9. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    City state in my current game razed a city of mine. And it was my only city with niter just when I reached musketmen. I was not amused.
     
  10. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    A city state keeps a very sizable force (given that it is just one city) and it keeps them all in one spot. It's probably a way simpler version of what the Ai goes through. I would be shocked if they wrote a separate combat target/move/attack routine for CS.
    I actually think the AI should sort of do the same- split its military into a couple armies and bunch each army around a city. It's much harder to defend against a big surge of 6 units and 2 siege weapons than a trickle of 2 at a time.
     
  11. Dragabond

    Dragabond Warlord

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    I've delayed peace in wars that I had no desire to fight because my city-state allies were razing the enemy civilization to the ground for me. Worked to my benefit when Valletta and Grenada burned down all of Sumeria while I peacefully colonized the western half of the continent.

    It becomes an annoyance when they continually attack the enemy capital, though, because they aren't allowed to capture them. I've had this happen a number of times; if a city-state unit would do enough damage to capture a Civ capital (other city-states don't count) they do the combat as normal, move into the city as if capturing it, and then simply die. It's an inelegant solution to city-states not being allowed to hold a second city.
    Funny enough, though, if you have units around the city that the city-state is attacking (either within the borders or just the workable ring, honestly not sure off the top of my head), they tend to back off and allow you at it. I'm not entirely sure if that's hard coded somehow but that's always been my experience in joint warfare with city-state friends.
     
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  12. Tobizi

    Tobizi Chieftain

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    It bothers me when a CS kills another CS. It was great that in Civ V all CS hated you if you attacked one and now they wipe each other out!? I think they should fight other main civs but not each other (at least not in each other territories) or at least kind of reset envoys when they conquer themselves, not raizing the city.
     
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  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have even stopped a war because my ally CS was going to kill a key other CS.
    You can levy troops the Troops to stop it, but only if you are suze.
    CS raze which is quite nasty when you do not notice.
    I am finding I am now levying CS troops a fair amount.
     
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  14. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    I remember when I got into a war early on in Rise and Fall and my city state allies declared war along with me, then suddenly I saw them get razed by the AI's city-state ally... that was pretty shocking! In fact it was the city state ally that posed more of a threat to me. It was I think Preslav, I valued militaristic city states more after that.

    Always fun to watch AI vs city state wars.
     
  15. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    No issues with losing them when you lose suzerain? Happened to me a few times so I stopped levying.
     
  16. Dedrytus

    Dedrytus Warlord

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    City states can do more trouble than regular civs. I lost one game when Aztecs and Japan attacked me in a joint war. I was doing fine until Aztecs took control over city state that was on my back. Four catapults, three swordsmans, small team of archers made havoc in my land - in a few turns two of my cities were razed and whole army went for my capital. It was very interesting game.
     
  17. Naeshar

    Naeshar Warlord

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    The OP could have landed in the screenshots thread.
    I wonder if the devs knew this and made the AI intentionally go after City States in order to eliminate such a threat, since player AI is known for conquest.
    It is very annoying if I declare war on someone and the CS gets there first and razes a fine city by itself, be it another civ or CS; in any case it is good to levy the troops so you can control them.

    A more general question: DO you think computer civs would benefit (war-wise) if there was a mechanism that funneled its forces like the CS do? Or is this only a byproduct of the fact that CS have nothing else to build (districts are limited, no wonders, probably no projects), hence they build army and focus a nearby target, like barbs?

    And another one: Do liberated CS go for projects, since they often do not seem to build any units?
     
  18. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Yes, I think the AI would benefit from a mechanism like that. It occurred me that a big reason why the AI seems weak is not just because of poor tactics but also because of grand strategy priorities. Humans are good at balancing between military and non-military. The AI does prioritize its military early on which is why the human can get into trouble if they make the noob mistake of neglecting their military in the early game. But later, the AI must switch its priorities to non-military goals in order to pursue a peaceful victory. So it is focused on districts and wonders. But this means often neglecting to keep their military up to par. As a result, if the human player shifts to a military posture, they can often easily overpower the peaceful AI that is by that time, woefully neglected its mid game military.

    I saw this in my game that I posted the screenshot from in my OP. Japan started off with a decent military and around the medieval era, actually had a slightly better military than me. It got to musketmen before I did and and for a time, had 2-3 musketmen when I only had swordsmen and a few archers. But then Japan must have switched its priorities to a religious/culture victory because it focused entirely on districts and wonders. 2 eras later, Japan still had the same military of 2-3 musketmen whereas I spent the next 2 eras prioritizing hansas and modernizing my military. The result was predictable. Japan got crushed because it still had the same 2 musketmen whereas I now had 3 musketmen corps, 1 bombard corps and some other units, not to mention, Vilnius bringing its military to bear on a second front.
     
  19. isau

    isau Deity

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    A subtle part of the reason the City State AI performs better is that with less range to move, they don't retreat from situations where just staying put will benefit them most. The AI doesn't understand that every time it moves a unit, it interrupts their healing and disrupts their building defense. As long as there is no ranged fire, not moving a unit placed on a choke point is often the best choice. Since City States have no grand strategy to move units across the world map and tend to haunt narrow passes of hills and mountains, they end up being a serious threat, where a full civ would run its units away.
     
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  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    yes of course... however the AI does not seem to be like a human player.... if it was a human player they would be swapping Amani in there ASAP but it appears this is not the case. Normally I can get at least 10 decent upgraded turns out of them which is normally all that is needed to break the back. The issue then is I have a CS walking around with toys that can do a lot of damage fast... that has been my downfall before.
     

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