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[NFP] City-States Elimination Thread vs. Ethiopian Update

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by TCBB, Jul 13, 2020.

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  1. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Well, this is pretty awkward.

    I had obtained permission from the moderators for the next elimination thread to be about City-States. They're present in every game, they have extremely varied & powerful bonuses, and I thought it would be fun and enlightening to debate them in the format of an elimination thread.

    Not expecting the Ethiopian update to feature anything about city-states, I had set up and planned the thread to start today or tomorrow. And then the devs come out of nowhere with the Diplomatic Quarter district. From what we can tell, this will involve some sort of significant overhaul of the city-state envoy system: to quote lead designer Anton Strenger, "to prevent envoys from becoming too powerful, envoy bonuses are now tied directly to these two buildings [i.e. Consulate and Chancery]".

    So, this begs the following question: do people want to begin the city-state elimination thread, or wait until the update comes in ten days? For me, it seems silly to start right now, given that there's a potentially massive revamp to city-states landing in just over a week. But are you happy waiting for ten days without an elimination thread?

    Or maybe, if people (and moderators?) are keen for it, we could start a short one in the interim – but if so, what should it be on? Which aspect of the game is short/concise enough to be debated in just over a week? Some quick ideas I had include:
    - 'most enjoyable victory condition' (only 6 options);
    - 'best faction in Red Death' (timely, and only 10 options: but do enough people play it?);
    - any one of 'best great scientist' / 'best great admiral' / 'best great general' / 'best great engineer' / 'best great merchant' (21 options in each category, I think);
    - 'best class of military unit' (13 options, excluding GDRs and support units);
    - 'best natural wonder' (interesting, but probably too long at 34 options).​

    Any thoughts / suggestions?
     
  2. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    I'm fine going with city states. I expect suzerain bonuses will remain unchanged, but individual envoys will boost the district rather than 'all libraries/markets/etc'.etc.

    Else, natural wonders are a good option.
     
  3. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Do City-States and we can do a Before/After with a second one after the update.
     
  4. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    As someone who likes my fair share of elimination threads, I don't mind either way. If we were to do a shorter one, I agree that red death is too niche and natural wonders takes too long. But I'm not fussed.
     
  5. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    I really think that's too much of a change, though. Let's say that you've got 2 cultural city states and 10 cities. A pretty average game. So, you'd get +40 culture to your amphitheaters and another +40 culture in your museums. You can double that with Grand Opera for +160 culture, and further improve it with more policy cards and whatnot.

    Now, you're saying that we'd only get +4 culture, doubled to +8? I don't think so. That would be terrible.

    Anyway, I would just wait the 10 days and then do city-states. I think we can all survive for 10 days!
     
  6. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Perhaps not only +4/+8, but likely not +X for all buildings. The statement did say "to prevent envoys from becoming too poweful" or something like that.

    And I'd have to agree, envoys are too powerful. First meets are too powerful. Presence or 2+ of X-type of city state is too game changing not only due to Kilwa (which could still operate unchanged) but as per your example for the mere fact that you can get numbers like +40/80/160 culture or whatever from just a handful of envoys.

    Yes this would be a significant nerf but it would make for better balance.
     
  7. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    I'd say wait 10 days. Elimination threads are a marathon not a sprint
     
  8. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    This one should fill in a week :)
     
  9. untitledjuan

    untitledjuan Chieftain

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    How do elimination threads work?
     
  10. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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  11. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    The suzerainity bonuses will most likely stay the same so you could probably get away with starting now. Nothing says we couldn't just scrap the thread altogether if it turns out to be completely out of date.

    If the changes do end up being large you might want to wait more than 10 days so we can actually play and experiment with them anyways.

    TBH I still don't have that much experience with some of the new city states that were recently added.
     
  12. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    It might also be the reverse - individual envoys will still boost 'all libraries' at second tier but only if you also have the diplo district and a consulate. I.e. gating it so it hits more late game and doesn't have quite the same game changing impact.

    But if it does just boost the one district (instead of all libraries/markets) that's something of a nerf to wide play. Placing say a campus without any significant adjacency bonus might not be worth it.

    Edit: For the City State elimination thread, just make it city state suzerainship bonus elimination instead of general city-state elimination. Makes arguments like 'well it's got a bad suzeranship, but it's a science CS so it's valuable just because of the envoy bonuses' irrelevant anyways.
     
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  13. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Let us do "next elimination thread" elimination thread.

    This should definitely finish within 10 days

    --------

    If we are not certain how would it work in new update, we can do something wuick in the meantime, I think natural wonders are not going to change?
     
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  14. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    Well, either we make the thread based ony on suzerainty bonus (that is expected will not change), or we may need to clarify a bit more the Diplomatic Quarter. Main poin is we cannot go on mass downvote/upvote of specific city state tipes based on the envoy yields, as these are the ones to be adjusted.

    But maybe there is no nedd to wait to the 23rd and someone on twitter can get Anton to provide a clearer explanation. What better reason to provide more info than this info is crucial to release an elimination tread at CivFanatics? :mischief:
     
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  15. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    It might be a more interesting thread if we're just looking at suzerainity bonuses anyways, otherwise a bunch of science city states with crappy bonuses are likely to coast by for awhile.
     
  16. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Agreed. A thread ranking the suzerain bonuses would be fun. It's not fun to consider the other envoy bonuses, I think.
     
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  17. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    I'll ask if we do suzerainships, that the OP posts the yields of the individual CS UI's as well as the suzerainship for the initial kick off. As I'm not going to remember what say a 'batey' yields. I'm not sure I'm going to remember any yields except that the Moai are ridiculously OP.
     
  18. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Elimception thread.

    Okay, so it looks like the consensus is in favour of starting now but *only* taking into account suzerain bonuses, as they're unlikely to change come the 23rd. That's helpful feedback anyway as I was planning to say 'feel free to consider envoy bonuses in your rationale', so we dodged a bullet there.

    And yup, I've already got all the explanations written out and ready. Though some of the unique improvements are incredibly convoluted – try getting your head around the full list of features for a Cahokia Mound!
     
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  19. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Sounds like a plan.

    Lisbon won't know what hit it.
     
  20. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Moderator Action: As the game thread has been started (focusing only on suzerain bonuses), this thread can be closed.
     
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