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[R&F] City-States Expanded

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Released Mods' started by thecrazyscot, Mar 15, 2018.

  1. Sladegos

    Sladegos Chieftain

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    Hello, I love your mod. Delos and Phasis are my favorites because it seems to me that the vanilla optimized way to play is to chop everything ASAP with Magnus and snowball as quickly as possible with huge bulky spikes in production rather than improved trickles. Those two city states in particular keep me from playing that way and wanting to preserve forests, forego mines, etc. Turns everything topsy-turny.

    Planting forests is late enough in the game that it's not too bad since snowballers would have snowballed for awhile by then and worker charges are a lot more expensive by that point. Plus some vanilla city-states are just as powerful if not moreso. If you have 25 cities, you can expect Stockholm to give about +25 great person points per turn of multiple great people, Kumasi trade routes can give +250 culture and +125 gold per turn, Antananarivo can give you +400 culture per turn, pre-RF Carthage could give +25 trade routes, Toronto is awesome, etc.

    I like that you made a few city-states comparable to the stronger vanilla ones. Naturally, combining suzerain bonuses can result in some crazy things if you get complementary ones in the same game (Kumasi + Antananarivo = +700 or more culture per turn), but that's why its competitive. I'd rather see more city-states get buffed to that level rather than nerfed down to meh level like La Venta, Armagh, Antioch, Vilnius, Preslav, Kandy, etc.

    Just my $0.02. I love what you've done.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  2. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Chieftain

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    On another note related to the new CS types: do they interact properly with Kilwa Kisiwani?
     
  3. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    Thanks for the report!

    Thanks for the feedback! I definitely want the city-states to be varied, fun, and at least some of them to be quite powerful, so I'm definitely going to keep that in mind any time I review suzerain bonuses, whether I end up changing them or not.

    Yep!
     
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  4. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    I'm going to be out of town for a week, so the next update probably won't be able to come for at least 2 weeks. I'll still be on here, just won't have access to my modding tools.

    Here are the current plans for the next update:

    v1.03 plans
    Fix Chan Chan's suzerain bonus providing unintenionally massive adjacency bonuses
    Fix Governor tooltip in the City-State panel
    Review the Walrus adjacency bonus to ensure it works correctly

    I'm also going to be thinking about the Phasis suzerain bonus, and trying to decide if it needs to be slightly balanced. Overall I think I really like the forests gaining +1 production if next to another forest part, so if I'm going to change the ability I'm going to change the part about Lumber mills...but I'll be thinking about it.
     
  5. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    I do not know what you could be basing that opinion on, but I disagree. I made several changes to the coastal start biases and went from 2 of 16 Maritime CS starting on coasts to 14 of 15 (6 test starts each). So...I'm happy with the results of my changes.
     
  6. Leyrann

    Leyrann Warlord

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    I meant to say that I doubted the problem was TCS not knowing that a lower number meant a stronger bias.
     
  7. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    Yeah, I don't think this was ever in question. TCS & CIVITAS know what they're doing. My only concern was the number and strength of the coastal biases. Raising that to 4 or 5 or deleting it entirely for non-Maritime CSs among other things definitely helped in my situation. Now if I can only get IQALUIT & TUNERIUT to spawn on or near Tundra tiles? Maybe a Penguin bias? :lol:
     
  8. TheSenate

    TheSenate Chieftain

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    Regarding Phasis' bonus, don't lumber mills on rivers already give +2 production instead of +1?
     
  9. Leyrann

    Leyrann Warlord

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    They do. I assume that they wanted to work with that idea.
     
  10. friday1st

    friday1st Chieftain

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    This is impressive.
    Feels very natural and brings out more paths throughout the game.

    I did not have the walls mod up but in my last game (first with this mod) most of the CS actually were alive and those that got captured were very strong, but that actually lead to liberation wars and voila, a new side of the game for me.
     
  11. Sladegos

    Sladegos Chieftain

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    So I've noticed that the Stupa improvements don't apply their science/culture bonuses retroactively. That is, if you place one and then build/complete a science/holy/theater district next to it, it does not display the +2 science/faith/culture bonus from the adjacency. It only work if it the stupa is placed after the district. I'm not sure if that is intentional. I love the new unique improvements though!

    Also, while this is probably outside the scope of this mod, is there any way to eliminate city-states we dislike from the selection pool so we get more of the ones we love? I've developed the bad habit of revealing all and re-rolling until I get enough of the ones I like LOL. I tried using the "Only Mod City-States" to eliminate the ones I dislike, but it seems it's incompatible with R&F, even before I messed with the SQL file to add more. I also poked around the files for this mod but it's definitely all over my head.

    I appreciate your work!
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  12. ChimpanG

    ChimpanG Chieftain

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    Love seeing the feedback this has been getting. Just wanted to add my two cents on how the start biases appear to work. They can be a bit quirky, and I don't think there's any way to 100% guarantee a certain start position, but there are things we can do to give us a good shot of getting the right bias. Inhales deep for long-winded explanation.

    With biases working on a tiered system, 1 being the highest priority, 5 being the lowest as it has been mentioned. Tiers 1 and 2 are generally reserved for things like Nan Madol being guaranteed coast (Tier 1), or Egypt being guaranteed flood plains (Tier 2).

    The way that Firaxis have set it up can be problematic, not because it's wrong as such, but more because there either aren't enough biases set or some biases can become a bit crowded. Take Australia as an example, who have a coastal start bias, and that's it. This means they can be anywhere on the coast, including on Tundra. So if you wanted to ensure that Australia gets a coastal start bias with some desert, then it would need a second bias at a lower priority for desert. With these parameters set, it would run through its plot evaluations to meet the criteria and place Australia on the nearest spot that meets minimum yield requirements. That's the important part, and likely the main reason why some civs or city-states may sometimes start 3-5 tiles away from where they're supposed to be. This is on average. I've rolled a few tests where they will seemingly be thrown anywhere after it gives up on trying to find a nearby spot that meets minimum yield requirements.

    Russia for example has tundra set to Tier 3, which isn't bad but if the plot values are lacking, it'll probably move them a little bit further away to meet minimum yield requirements sometimes. Setting it to a higher tier would probably be a greater guarantee of a tundra start, or at least near it, but as not many civs start on Tundra, that particular bias isn't too crowded so to speak, whereas coastal biases might be.

    I can't confirm that this is 100% accurate, but we played around with the biases a lot and this was the picture that the numerous tests started to paint for us.

    So, looking into further we can see some hard numbers with regards to plot evaluations, which is potentially unrelated but I imagine it might have something to do with how plot evals are determined. As far as I can see, there are 11 conditions for plot evaluations and these are used to determine where a civ might pop a city down during the game. As an example, the AI List for StandardSettlePlot (which is applied to all major civs) has the following values attached to it:

    There are a bunch more of these, but you get the idea. The values that are assigned to these entries in the DB start making sense when you cross-reference them with the DefaultCitySettlement AI List, specifically "SETTLEMENT_CITY_MINIMUM_VALUE", which is set at 100. So, by default, if the value of a potential city spot adds up to 100, then it is deemed a spot worth settling. There must be something in the background where it measures the full 3 tile ring or something, or the other multipliers in the same lists might play a part in this. But, this is tied to the strategies, which of course make things a bit more dynamic, such as the ExpansionistCitySettlement AI list, which only has a value of 50. That's why Trajan generally appears to be less picky about where he settles, so he can have all the land mwahaha. These lists also change throughout the game depending on era and other things.

    I can't confirm if the initial plot evaluations for a first city work in the same way, but it's makes sense to assume that it is calculated in a similar manner. Heck, it might even use the same list for all I know, but as a guess I think the start bias works as sort of a filter, and then some sort of plot eval calcuation runs within a certain radius to determine the overall value of a spot, and then it moves the starting spot accordingly.

    Sorry about the long post! If nothing else I hope this rambling helps to provide some insight on plot evaluations :)

    Chimp
     
  13. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    Thanks @ChimpanG for the in depth explanation. It definitely provided insight into this sometimes confusing/frustrating mechanism.
     
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  14. letsdance

    letsdance Chieftain

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    nm it seems to work now
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  15. Zergus17

    Zergus17 Chieftain

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    All Work.
    If you need full compatible with "Better Report Screen":
    replace "_CVS_MINOR_CIV_" to "_MINOR_CIV_CVS_" in files folder "B_Types".
     
  16. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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    Bug report (version 1.02)
    GameEffects.log spits out several warnings.

    Code:
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Created Requirement <29369:CVS_CITYSTATE_REQUIRES_AVERAGE_APPEAL> with Owner <Player: 3> and Subject <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Warning: Object <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA> does not support interface <{3572089E-A269-461E-BD1B-803EF6CD044B}>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Created Requirement <29370:CVS_CITYSTATE_REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_AQUEDUCT> with Owner <Player: 3> and Subject <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Warning: Object <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA> does not support interface <{3572089E-A269-461E-BD1B-803EF6CD044B}>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Created Requirement <29375:CVS_CITYSTATE_REQUIRES_BREATHTAKING_APPEAL> with Owner <Player: 3> and Subject <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Warning: Object <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA> does not support interface <{3572089E-A269-461E-BD1B-803EF6CD044B}>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Created Requirement <29376:CVS_CITYSTATE_REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_AQUEDUCT> with Owner <Player: 3> and Subject <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA>.
    [2678699.801] [Turn: 1] Warning: Object <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA> does not support interface <{3572089E-A269-461E-BD1B-803EF6CD044B}>.
    [2678699.802] [Turn: 1] Created Requirement <29381:CVS_CITYSTATE_REQUIRES_CHARMING_APPEAL> with Owner <Player: 3> and Subject <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA>.
    [2678699.802] [Turn: 1] Warning: Object <City (65536), Owner: 3, Name: LOC_CITY_NAME_ETZANOA> does not support interface <{3572089E-A269-461E-BD1B-803EF6CD044B}>.
    
    There are couple more.
     
  17. Finarfin

    Finarfin Chieftain

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    Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see a link to the compatibility patch anywhere.
     
  18. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    Clicking on the "Direct Download" link in the first post will take you to the download site @ Mega. There'll be three items listed, pick the last one - CSE-BetterTradeScreen_compat . Then right-click > download > standard download. Open the downloaded zip file and extract theTradeSupport.lua file to your desktop. Then follow the instructions in post #20 to cut+paste the file into the correct folder.
     
  19. Finarfin

    Finarfin Chieftain

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    Thanks. I actually had started going to that link, but when I saw the logo start to load I thought I was already downloading the main mod (which I have). I guess I just have to think a little harder next time!
     
  20. circeus

    circeus Chieftain

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    Would you consider making the +6 and +3 bonuses from Consular CS distinct? One could become "+1 loyalty pressure from monuments", "+0.5 Loyalty Pressure per Citizen from city with Government Plaza", or even "+1 influence point toward envoys each turn" for examples.

    As is not only is it simply not elegant compared to the other types, but even +4 everywhere is not that relevant for most games (though admittedly I'm not familiar with high-difficulty games, but since loyalty bonuses are not altered in anyway that I know at higher difficulties...).
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018

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