City States Still Unbalanced?

[kopema]

I tried the demo of Brave New World, and the new Trade Route feature looks pretty good. I'll probably end up getting it, but I just want to know something first.

When I played Civ V before, everytime I played against Greece with the default number of City States, they ended up winning. And when I played Greece I ended up steamrolling all the other civ's so easily it wasn't even fun. I finally ended up just resetting the number of City States to two or so; then it seemed balanced.

When I played the new demo, I started out SURROUNDED by City States. I have no problem with the game mechanic itself; it just seems like the default setting makes them pretty much dominate the gameplay, with all those additional resources.

Am I missing something here, or should I just go ahead and lower the number of City States and forget about it.

 

[phstein86]

Imho, for a diplomatic win it's complete bs. You can bribe them 1 turn before voting and just bend everyone's will. I often play with diplo off and fewer cs's, but if you think about it you kinda ruin an SP tree and some cs focused civs hampered. There's no way out clean here.

 

[Snuffleupagus]

Greece is still really really powerful, but I have never seen the extremes your discussing (although they are a prime target for a war).

Personally, I do enjoy the game more if I lower the number of city states by one or two. Or just play with Austria or Venice and watch the city states slowly dissapear..

 

[chazzycat]

I don't think anything has changed in BNW with regards to the number of city states on the map or their placement near your starting area. That's probably just luck. But yes they are still pretty good. The geographic distribution & types of CS on the map are a big factor in almost any game.

Alex is a pain in the ass but you can beat him to diplomacy if you really want to, you just need a bigger economy. Unless you are playing deity level he should be manageable. Especially now that there are ideology tenets devoted to increasing CS influence, and the AI sucks at filling ideologies fast.

 

[kingofsealand]

Greece is still really really powerful, but I have never seen the extremes your discussing (although they are a prime target for a war).

Personally, I do enjoy the game more if I lower the number of city states by one or two. Or just play with Austria or Venice and watch the city states slowly dissapear..

Valid point there, Austria and venice are basically the antithesis to Greece because their play style depends on gobbling up available city states

 

[FrostK]

Without patronage you can not get a lot from CSs. But putting points into patronage instead of rationalism may be an error. I think situation now is quite balanced:
- if some conquer CSs and others try to ally them (with AI it more refers to high diff), then sometimes it is better just ignore CSs
- if noone cares about CSs, patronage is imba

It is like religion - if only 1 civ owns religion, religion is imba. If a lot of civ go for religion, then religion is so-so.
Playing Greece vs AI is quite straitforward - u ally as much CS as possible, when playing vs humans - you will probably face situation that each human has several CSs which he wont loose.
quite balanced

 

[Tachii]

I suggest the idea that civs need to fulfill a number of quests throughout the game by CS to have them vote for them including being allies. Quests as in the ones they already ask such as giving them gold/denouncement/generate GP. It gives a bit more substance for them to vote than just bribing them and winning. Although it's still easy.

 

[z284pwr]

Without patronage you can not get a lot from CSs. But putting points into patronage instead of rationalism may be an error. I think situation now is quite balanced:
- if some conquer CSs and others try to ally them (with AI it more refers to high diff), then sometimes it is better just ignore CSs
- if noone cares about CSs, patronage is imba

It is like religion - if only 1 civ owns religion, religion is imba. If a lot of civ go for religion, then religion is so-so.
Playing Greece vs AI is quite straitforward - u ally as much CS as possible, when playing vs humans - you will probably face situation that each human has several CSs which he wont loose.
quite balanced

I have actually given up on finishing up Tradition and just build aqueducts since Oligarchy is such a weaker policy than the rest, this lets me open Patronage sooner and jump right into Consulates. Taking Consulates + Pledge to Protect to friend City-States for luxuries is usually more important than Landed Elite and Oligarchy for me.

 

[Rohili]

They are EVEN more unbalanced with BNW now that you have the World Congress. So they not only give you free resources, free food/culture/faith/happiness, free units and GPs, they also give you crucial votes in the WC allowing you to pass/defeat resolutions.

In all my games so far, the dominant strategy has been to ally with as many city-states as possible. It simply makes no sense to play any other way.

The reason why Alex feels unbalanced is not because of his UA; it is because he is programmed to actually take city-states seriously and bribe as many of them as possible. Most civs don't do that; they would rather sit on a 5-figure pile of gold than use it to buy up city-states and enjoy the numerous benefits that they give.

 

[kopema]

They are EVEN more unbalanced with BNW now that you have the World Congress. So they not only give you free resources, free food/culture/faith/happiness, free units and GPs, they also give you crucial votes in the WC allowing you to pass/defeat resolutions.

In all my games so far, the dominant strategy has been to ally with as many city-states as possible. It simply makes no sense to play any other way.

The reason why Alex feels unbalanced is not because of his UA; it is because he is programmed to actually take city-states seriously and bribe as many of them as possible. Most civs don't do that; they would rather sit on a 5-figure pile of gold than use it to buy up city-states and enjoy the numerous benefits that they give.

Yeah, that's what I figured.

The City States are a great mechanic; it's just that the game seems to revolve around them too heavily with the default setting.

I'll just keep the number low.

 

[Dentalfury]

I don't feel the CS situation is unbalanced anymore. Pre-BNW your only realistic option would be just horde money and throw it at them as need be to maintain loyalty.

Now, with the trade route mechanic and various ideology bonuses (Treaty Organization and Gunboat Diplomacy come to mind) you can maintain at least a few CS allies if not many.

The game i'm actually playing now is sorta playing out that way. I have Greece and Austria in my game and although Greece does have the most CS's in their favor it certainly hasn't helped them all that much and Austria, as far as I can tell, hasn't use their UA once throughout them game (now 1924AD).

 

[Singulare]

Greece is still really really powerful, but I have never seen the extremes your discussing (although they are a prime target for a war).

Personally, I do enjoy the game more if I lower the number of city states by one or two. Or just play with Austria or Venice and watch the city states slowly dissapear..

I'm playing with Greece on Emperor currently and due to holding the allegiance of all city states in the world I'm producing almost double science and 3 times as much culture as my civ produces. I'm getting a bunch of free units and 14 additional happiness (not counting the special lux resources). It is ridiculously powerful.

 

[Resipsa]

I have actually given up on finishing up Tradition and just build aqueducts since Oligarchy is such a weaker policy than the rest, this lets me open Patronage sooner and jump right into Consulates. Taking Consulates + Pledge to Protect to friend City-States for luxuries is usually more important than Landed Elite and Oligarchy for me.

Why not open liberty left side then?

 

[FrostK]

I have actually given up on finishing up Tradition and just build aqueducts since Oligarchy is such a weaker policy than the rest, this lets me open Patronage sooner and jump right into Consulates. Taking Consulates + Pledge to Protect to friend City-States for luxuries is usually more important than Landed Elite and Oligarchy for me.

Usually you go Education and you close tradition before you can build aqueducs and actually you da not have money to buy them. Do not forget about +15% growth and military aspect of the tradition [higher city range strength]
Also ability to buy GE is important.
In general I see only 2 situations, when taking 2 last politics in tradition can be mistake:
-Venice, Austria [on Deity CS gets aqueducs faster than u ^^]
-OCC