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City-States

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by NKN, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. NKN

    NKN Prince

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    A nice addition to DoC might be city-states; i.e. civs consisting of one city and not much land.

    • Surplus health counts as food. This encourages lots of trading/vassalizing.
    • Land only comes under its control if it has 97% of its culture. For water, 90% is enough.
    • Question: should these be created randomly, or should they be specific civs (Venice, Hong Kong, Singapore)? Should they be playable?
    Apologies if this has been discussed before.
     
  2. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    You kinda just opened a Pandora's Box here...

    Civilizations, not states, not city states, not polities, just civilizations.
    Polities & states are represented via your dynamic civ name & the civics you choose.
    That ought to be a point to hammer in.

    City States are adequately portrayed with the City States civic.
    And all of the examples you listed already belong to a family of civilization.
    (Venice belongs to the Italian civilization and Hong Kong & Singapore belonging to Chinese civilization)
     
  3. The Diocletian

    The Diocletian Fire Fly

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    I'm no expert on the Orient, unlike you, but I didn't think Singapore was subject to rule by the PRC?
     
  4. NKN

    NKN Prince

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    To clarify, the idea isn't to include every city possible. But it can provide a way to include a civilization like Venice, which was once a significant world power, without requiring the amount of land a regular civilization needs.
     
  5. FinalLegendZero

    FinalLegendZero Prince

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    Leoreth has already stated several times that he will NOT add Venice as a civilization. The Italian civilization covers it just fine already. As TD has already shown, your other suggested new Civs are adequately covered as parts of other Civilizations as well.
     
  6. The Diocletian

    The Diocletian Fire Fly

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    I doubt people are questioning the importance of Venice and company, but the scale of the map, as well as resource limits means that they can ultimately be represented by one civilization.
     
  7. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    You're thinking in terms of states.

    Singapore is Chinese in terms of civilization.

    To illustrate my example, take the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period.
    Or the Three Kingdoms period. During those times, there existed a number of separate Chinese states.
    But they all adhered to the same Chinese civilization. Does that make sense?
     
  8. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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  9. calad

    calad Emperor

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    I know city states in civ5 are nice but they are a bit difficult to bring to civ4.
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Venice certainly was not a world power.
     
  11. BenZL43

    BenZL43 awkward cat

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    Singapore is Chinese majority and live in majority Chinese culture. I can confirm that :)
    There is significant percentage of Malay (original) culture (so it's also Indonesian civilization in term of DoC) and also small but growing population of Tamil cultures.

    Anyway, even if it's in, city-states should not be playable. Though however, IMO, the idea of interacting with a single independent, non-conquerable, trade-able city in the post-Industrial era could be interesting if it's really possible.
     
  12. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Hopeless Situation Warrior

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    No, there was no "Italian" civilization when Venice was a major power, so Venice should be its own nation!!!!!?!!

    You know the drill...

    (JK, I know that tragically, everybody hates the brilliant idea of Venice as a civ.)

    EDIT: On the real topic, I think that city-states are represented best by a combination of Independents, the City-States civic, and one or two really influential civilizations that are best represented in a baddonkey OCC.
     
  13. The Diocletian

    The Diocletian Fire Fly

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    Ahh, I undersand now. Thank you for the explanation. :)
     
  14. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Hopeless Situation Warrior

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    Buy it did have a huge influence on world history.
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Hardly.

    The Mongol Empire had a huge impact on world history, for some perspective.
     
  16. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Hopeless Situation Warrior

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    Venice filled up the same role during the Middle Ages that Portugal had during the 1400s-1600s; it dominated trade to Asia and got extremely rich and influential out of the process. Venice also sacked Constantinople with the help of the Crusaders and enabled the Ottomans to grow into a major power.

    Venice had more influence on world history than Mexico, Colombia, Argentina, Tibet, Congo, the Khmer, and arguably several more.

    In terms of gameplay, Italy's spawn could be pushed back to 1416 at Turin, and even then, Venice would have 4-6 tiles and 1-2 cities in its core, which is the same/more than Portugal, the Netherlands, Thailand, Maya, and a few others.

    But since you hate my Venice idea and it will never be implemented by anyone until I learn to program Venice in or someone adds Venice as a birthday present to me, I'll shut up.

    That and this is a City-States thread, not mrrandomplayer's billionth petition to add Venice.
     
  17. Chep

    Chep Emperor

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    you can play as Venice in RFC Europe (RFCE), but I think in the context of this mod it wouldn't fit, they didn't hold many "real" colonies and it would be more of an OCC (with the occasional conquest of Byzantium maybe^^) and the map in Europe is already too crowded as is.

    about the city-states....there's a reason I'm playing civ4 and not civ5 :D
     
  18. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Hopeless Situation Warrior

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    I know, but RFCE isn't nearly as good as DoC!

    I think RFCE is pretty fun, but not as skill-intensive or good as DoC.
     
  19. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    No separation of Italy and Venice.
    Venice is a state. Italy is a civ. Venice is an Italian state.
    Venetian is a dialect. Of the Italian language.

    I made the case with Singapore already too. It isn't part of the PRC.
    They're both still running on Chinese civilization though. It's like an operating system.
    Judging by cultural differences isn't always a good measure.
    The same justification that allows for the separation of Italy and Venice
    can be used for something ludicrous like splitting America up into "Dixie" and "New England".
    Or Russia into "Novgorod" and "Muscovy" (which was actually suggested sometime during this forum's history).
    Let's split Mongols up into "Golden Horde", "Oirats" & "Chagatai".
    How about the people who want "Syria", "Iraq", and "Saudi Arabia" despite
    the fact that they're all clearly Arab states that are part of an Arabian civilization?

    Yes, they all have their differences. But they're from the same family.
    Personally, the thought of being counted as part of "Hakka" civilization as opposed to "Chinese" civilization is ridiculous to me.
    It's a subgroup, not something so different as to be counted as different,
    which is the same for Venetians and Italy.

    Your Venice idea works for RFCE.
    Why? Because RFCE is scaled to work with polities.
    There are multiple Italian & German polities that are there because the mod can support them and the scale is more focused (hence RFC Europe).
    However, I don't think people can deny those polities being part of civilizations.
    DoC focuses on civilizations; different states are represented with civics.

    I do not know what is so difficult to understand about that.

    I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh but it's just that I think Civ5 just set a very bad precedent by being the first Civ game to include not-civs as civs.
    By established Civilization (as in the games) canon, civilizations have always represented ethno-linguistic cultural bubbles to me.

    This is the way I see it, to put it in perspective:
    Iraq is an Arab state. An Arabian civilization is in the game. Therefore, Iraq is covered.
    Novgorod is a Russian state. A Russian civilization is in the game. Therefore, Novgorod is covered.
    Venice is an Italian state. An Italian civilization is in the game. Therefore Venice is covered.
     
  20. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Hopeless Situation Warrior

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    Apologies. Sometimes my Venetian pride kicks in and I go on mad rants about Venice, as you can see.
     

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