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City Types and their Buildings, Effects, Features

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Oct 3, 2014.

  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I wanted to keep all these ideas in one place and so newcomers to this forum can get a general idea of citytypes in M:C.

    Below is the three citytypes...


    Monasteries
    Starts with:
    -the Abbey (where your monks work and play):produces Fealty
    -Library- This is where your Scribes will work producing Research
    -A Chapel, Work Bench, One Free Industry


    Features, Buildings and Effects
    • -No Military Buildings/Production
    • -They will be allowed only tier 2 Industries/Buildings (Warehouse, but no Warehouse Expansion, etc.)
    • -Max Walls
    • -Unique Building: Shrine
    • -Unique Building: Library
    • -Unique Building: Garden- works like an extra Well +2 Food
    • -Unique Building: Cloister (used for study and meditation) Bonus to Religion/Research
    • -Unique Building: Sacristy (storage for valuables) Shrine Bonus, Increase Storage for Gold/Silver/Wine Perhaps
    • -Unique Building: Refectory (Kitchen/Dinning Hall) Produces Luxury Food with Extra Bonuses perhaps
    • -Unique Building: Dormitory (monk beds) Increase Population Max

    Outposts:
    Starts with:
    -Outpost: Produces Fealty
    -Work Bench, Fire Pit, Stockade

    Features, Buildings and Effects
    • -Some buildings/additions offer a ZOC (zone of control) that will reduce enemy movement to one tile and perhaps do damage.
    • -Outpost can upgrade their Keeps to Castles
    • -Only tier 1 none military industries/buildings (this means Trading Post only, etc)
    • -Max Armor Production
    • -Bonuses to Military
    • -Free Promotion when Units Created here (perhaps)
    • -Unique Building: Keep
    • -Unique Building: Barracks-Increase Training
    • -Unique Building: Bake House- Produces Luxury Food
    • -Unique Building: Cellar-Increased Storage for Wine/Ale
    • -Unique Building: Towers- North,South,East,West-adds defense Bonus, Auto Attacks when maned by Archers
    • -Unique Building: Drawbridge/Moats- Increased Defense
    • -Unique Building: Gatehouse- Increased Defense
    • -Unique Building: Barbican- Upgrade to Gatehouse- Auto Attacks
    • -Unique Building: Prison- Convert Criminals
    • -Unique Building: Siege Workshop
    • -Unique Building: Palace

    Villages
    Starts with:
    -Village Hall, Fire Pit, Work Bench, One Free Industry

    Features, Buildings and Effects
    • -Max none Military Industries/Buildings
    • -Walls cost Double
    • -Only tier 2 Military
    • -Unique Building: Banks
    • -Unique Building: Mints
    • -Unique Building: Storehouse Expansion
    • -Unique Building: University

    I am also thinking about connection Bonuses. If a City is Connected to a Outpost/Castle and within a certain Distance the City gains a Defense Bonus and a Fealty Bonus, all depending on the buildings in the Outpost/Castle. Perhaps also, if the Castle has enough Defense with Towers and such, the City/Monastery can not be attacked until the Castle Falls. This was similar to how war took place in those time as you could not leave a maned Castle and go assault a City because the Castle Defenders would attack from the rear.

    Also, a Connection Bonus from Monasteries for increased Religion and perhaps other bonuses. Each City only gains benefit from one Castle/Monastery. The Castles and Monasteries could gain a benefit from each other and Cities as well.

    Culture Connection Bonus: If you have a Triangle of All three Citytypes in the same plotgroup and in range, they will generate a Cultural Bonus between them.
     
  2. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I think every town type needs to produce fealty, otherwise they will be a drain on global loyalty, and so long as you are not going against their faith they would be able to be loyal to you and your reign.

    (Continuing the monastery conversation)
     
  3. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Ok, Hopefully I can get something out soon for you to play test. One thing to keep in mind for WorldHistory, if we have the able mentioned system for the middle ages, what to do with Castles and Monasteries as they become obsolete. Perhaps, just have them convert to Cities, or remain farming communities.

    Also to think about what all City types will there be through the ages.
     
  4. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yeah, I have already been thinking about that in a little bit.

    One is to let them become normal towns, or towns with a stealth ability that when they get to the industrial age they become 'historic townss' with some kind of benefit.

    But I am not too worried about all that yet, the more fun things we implement for medieval, the more fun things we can do for town choices through the ages. Like castles could be upgraded to 'star forts' and eventually to army, navy or air force bases or something like that.

    I was also thinking of ideas like rural and industrial towns for the industrial era, that either do tile yields or 'goods' yields better, or even mining towns that boost hill and mountain yields.

    In short.... Loads of possibilities! :D
     
  5. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Well, I can work at making it modder friendly, when the time comes, so you can add new Citytypes. This would probably require have a CityType class in the XML, so you can add types there with certain attributes perhaps, plus the type name.

    I really like the Idea of Historical towns. If your Original Castle can survive to the Industrial Age it will become a Historical Site, and produce extra Culture. This would require us to add the ability of Wars fought over the City to destroy buildings, so there is a chance for it to be demolished. I remember one of the Civs had this effect. Also, Spy missions to destroy buildings to decimate a rivals Culture production, or what ever, to prevent them from gaining an advantage.

    I am currently working to add the Yield Bonus for having Your Towns Connected to other specific Citytypes. So far, in the XML you can set the Citytype, the Yield, and the amount of the Bonus %.

    Personal Note so I don't forget my next step :)
    I'll have to add a counter to PlotGroups that counts the Number of Citytypes connected to it. Then the City can just check to see if this number is > 0 for each Bonus then if so it is applied. I could add distance too, but for the moment just being connected by trade route is all that is required.
     
  6. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Would it be possible to have 2 xml tags, one for percentage yield increase, and one for a solid yield increase, like +1, +2, etc.
    This would just give more options and diversity, as you could make something similar to the mission/tradepost bonus, or a % bonus.
    If it could also have multiple yields in the tags, so you could say make a monastery give +1 Featly, +2 crosses, +20% culture (or whatever combination is desired.)

    In the long term it would just give it much more power, diversity, and flexibility as a feature.

    But I am very excited for the next release!

    Historic sites could also generate tourists or archeological expeditions, like pilgrims.
     
  7. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yeah, I wasn't sure which to go with percent or not, but at the moment it could be either as I haven't done the addition yet and I am sure I can code it to be used either way. You can already have multiple Yield Modifiers so that's a yes :)

    Edit: I just figured out, Lib, why you are so active on the forums. I have 2,276 post to your 2,235. You are trying to catch me :) Well, as long as we keep conversating between each other I'll keep my lead :) Seriously, thanks for all the feed back:rockon:
     
  8. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Here is one idea about the limited populations that just popped in my head, haven't thought it through much yet, but as usual ideas come to me as I type...

    What if after a certain size you would have to build Improvements in order to increase City size, like hamlets and such. There could be several types of these dwelling places that offer your cities different benefits. Or (another idea:mischief:) perhaps Hamlets after a certain time can give a random benefit. Like, a proprietor sets up a popular Inn that increases Immigration and Culture. Or, a Monk founds an Abby, "A Franciscan Monk founds an Abby near your hamlet", which you receive bonuses for. These improvements would prevent the plot from being worked. I know Lib talked about other smaller villages still working these plots but I am not convenience of that yet. If City A can't work a plot because of over population then how can Village B work the plot.

    Anyway, Large Cities that must be supported from outside by smaller communities does sound like a intriguing addition, however it's worked out, plus it would be realistic as well.
     
  9. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Again with the can't/can be worked by another city, the way I would explain it is about the weird scale of col. display. (For example, how can a soldier be taller than a city wall? Is every man in col. godzilla?)

    So there are still tracts of land that can be worked, they are just too far away to be worked by the residents of that city, you need a village 'out there' to work the lands and transport the goods to the city for consumption.

    I like the improvement idea, I had way back when been thinking about a similar idea for WH, where you could build improvements that would generate 'produced goods' rather than 'raw materials' so for example you could build an 'arms factory' that would generate guns without the need of raw materials, at a slower rate than an 'internal factory' that would require the raw materials.

    This means if you are having troubles with your logistics, you can locally produce a small amount of weapons (or whatever). (In WW2 Britain designed the Sten Gun to be so simple so that people could make them in their back garden shed to help supply the troops wth a much needed sub-machinegun) but if your empire keeps a strong logistic setup, it will outpace the competition in industrial capacity and eventually win the war of attrition. (which is pretty much the way every industrial war was eventually won).

    These 'Sub-Urban Improvements' could also remove all land yields from the tile, thus who ever works that tile can only produce the production yield, so whether the 'city' or the 'village' or 'Sub-Urban Town Center' is the one working it, it will now only produce the products rather than a land yield.

    Thus representing the the true 'land death' caused by urban sprawl. (as you finally have to locate to a new geographic area to produce those pesky things like food to support your population!)

    I think this would be easier to do from a coding perspective as well, as the 'work limit' could be contained within the 'City code', rather than having to impact on the 'map code' as well. This of course may be a false assumption on my part.

    P.S. The reason I am posting so much here, is:
    1. I enjoy Col. a lot, especially now with MC's shift from Colony building, back to Civ empire building.
    2. FTTW has a display bug that I have no idea how to fix, so can't mod that and am bored out of my skull :D
     
  10. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I see what you are saying. Still, I have always found it silly that when your Cities have massive populations they Graphically cover nearly the whole 9 plot city radius. I was like, "how in the world can I grow Cotton when there are houses all over that plot?!?." Anyway, this addition would address that. We can make adjustments to can/can't work plots as we play test.

    Good suggestion and would be easy to do code wise.

    I have finished up the initial setup for this. The Buildings pedia will display what Buildings allow you to gain a bonus from what Connected City. It is only Percent at the moment but I will add normal Values as well. This could even be negative for certain Buildings, perhaps ones that produce lots of pollution.
     
  11. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Or negatives for things like bandit camps, if you want to be able to recruit nefarious types!
     
  12. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I have been thinking, reading, daydreaming about what can be done to enhance the Empire Building aspect of the mod. There are several "issues" a Civ needs (to deal with) in order to become a thriving empire, those being; Military, Political, Economics, and Religion to name that top 4. These 4 put together also help make up a Civs Culture. So, keeping that in mind...

    I remember how there use to be "Corruption" in Civ but they removed it in Civ4, and even though Corruption type effects would grow in an expanding empire it just seems wrong to add it back now. So, perhaps there could be more of an emphases on "Fealty" instead of adding some kind of Corruption effect. Fealty (Rebel Sentiment) adds to production, thus the more Fealty you have the better the produciton. This could be adjusted to make "Fealty" more of a requirement so that you would need to have stewards, mayors, governors and such working in your citites in order to keep things running optimally.

    Production could be adjusted down, so that Fealty is more imporatant. Perhaps, not so much for the early game, but more for the middle to late game. Early town development could work close to as it does now, but as population increases you really have to have a good Administration setup in order to increase Production. Also, perhaps another name could be given to it instead of Fealty as Fealty is more like Happiness, so perhaps it could be called "Administration".

    For example, Coat Trader's House produces 3 per turn, and a Coat Trader's Shop produces 6. This could be reduced to say 4 or 5, or perhaps remain at 3 and the only advantage is more workers. Also, the Coat Trader's shop could require a Town Hall. Then, the Administration produced by the Town Hall would increase the output to higher levels.

    This is where a new YIELD_LAW would come in. Produced by your Courts, as well as Garrisoned Units, this new Yield would greatly improve Administration, so much so that without it your Cities can not grow to full potential.

    Also, without workers/troops producing Administration, Administration falls, thus reducing Production.

    Also again, some Buildings could require a certain Administration (Fealty) level in order to build, and stop functioning if it falls below that level; unit can no longer work there.

    Administrative Buildngs (ideas)

    Reeve's House-> helps to improve Field Labor Production(could be separate building and units working here simply add bonuses to Field Labor)
    Village Hall-> first Administrative building (Reeve's work here)
    Manor House-> replaces Village Hall under Manorial Civic(Stewards Work here)
    The Keep->Similar to Manor House, this would be the highest level for Castles
    Town Hall-> required in order to advance beyond Village/Manorial level settlement, Replaces other buildings and does the work of Reeve's House as well.
    City Hall-> required it order to advance beyond Town level settlement, replaces Town Hall
    Palace-> replaces Town and City Halls, unique building that makes the City the Capitol. Could have different Levels of Palaces with the Grand Palace only being allowed in the Grandest of Civs.
     
  13. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    This sounds like a cool idea, I think th 'math' for how much fealty production is needed would need to be adjusted to work with this, as I don't think the Col. calculation is designed to favour big cities.

    I like the term 'Fealty' it is very medieval and a good word to have, it basically means loyalty, and I think a well administered kingdom would be more loyal, and a more loyal kingdom would be more peaceful and productive, a bit like a national pride, you love your king and work hard under his leadership and rule.

    I think 'Administration' would be more like the WH version of Fealty, as it is a more generic term that would last the ages.

    I am currently wondering about adding a new LAW yield.. I am trying to think how it could be used to make it distinct from FEALTY and have some purpose..

    If it's only purpose is to boost Fealty, then why not simply have courts and garrisons produce Fealty, and you need these extra sources of fealty in the city level towns to keep them productive..

    Or things like courts continue as they are, making gold but also add a +X% to fealty production, again being needed to administer larger cities.

    Unless we can make a unique purpose for LAW, there is no point adding it, as it is really just a part of Fealty, high Fealty means Strong Law in your Kingdom..

    Essentially at the moment, every citizen carries with it a little 'corruption' as every new citizen reduces your overall fealty level, and makes it take longer to increase it.

    I like the other ideas you mentioned. Town/City Hall and Palace being needed for higher level buildings, also the idea of buildings shutting down if fealty drops too low (city becomes to lawless) is cool.

    Same with Fealty being a much bigger part of increasing productivity, so new buildings add new slots, with Fealty boosting quantities.

    Some of these higher level buildings could come with a X% boost to fealty production too, representing some 'in-built' administration, but you still need the town leadership working to get the benefit of the boost.
     
  14. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Some good points. I was thinking the same thing about Law as well. Since there are now combined Yields that contribute to certain aspects of Empire Buildings, Law could be another Major aspect.

    An example is Immigration is produced from Religion, Education, and Fealty. In vanilla it is only Crosses that produce Immigration. Culture is another one, the yields being Culture, Religion, and Education. There is also a new term called Prosperity which just shows you how well you are producing Immigration and Culture.

    Law could become a major factor here as well as help to turn Outlaws into Peasants. Also, law produced by Soldiers could help subdue newly conquered settlements. Law could also help in changing Civics so that you don't have as much Anarchy and reduce the costs. Law would be added to the equations for Culture and Immigration as well.

    Fealty, could become a factor of yields as well, such as Religion, Law, and Education.

    I plan on finishing up some those things with TTW then migrating back to M:C to look more into these ideas.
     
  15. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yeah, I just can't see a purpose for it at the moment, like you are trying to invent something that is already there...

    Like other than turning outlaws to peasants, (which already happens)[and isn't THAT big of a part of the game] I don't see what it would actually do...

    Beyond what fealty or the combined immigration or culture systems already do..unless it is more or less a cosmetic difference..

    Unless it is something like you can accumulate it like gold that can be spent on civics or something..

    I just can't see what role it could play that would be sizeable enough to warrant a whole new yield..

    Also I like the way you think with your work order :p
     
  16. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Good points, when I first created the Court houses, my full intention was to make a YIELD_LAW and have it as a critical part of your Empire Building, producing Gold was just a place holder. Talking this through with you though is generating Ideas (aka Research). But how to make it viable and fun part is the question and not copy or rob from Fealty. I don't like both Courts and Markets producing Gold, so perhaps Courts just give a Bonus to certain industries and perhaps increase prices in a City as people can trust the system more.

    Fealty percent could be used to reduce a Cities Anarchy during Civic Changes, say a Cities Fealty is at 50%, and Anarchy is 6 turns, it would reduce that to only 3 turns for that city.
     
  17. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Here is an idea I posted in general mod forums in response to "work camps" but I really like it for M:C. The above mentioned Administration buildings would work well with this...

     
  18. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I am not sure if it is worth the effort of adding in all of the extra content for this work camp concept (Limited number of yields, different screens, etc.)

    Would it not just be simpler to make the 'starting town' more basic. With a starting town you will almost never have more than 6 yields being produced anyway.

    Food, Wood and the reason you put it there in the first place, maybe tools if you are really organised.

    So there isn't really a need to add a limit, only being able to store about 100 in stock is usually enough motivation for me to upgrade my warehouse, unless my transport is already shifting stuff at pace.

    I mean towns are already pretty basic at start.. get rid of the industry building and you more or less have what you describe..

    A hammer building, a basic fealty building and? A tools building?

    Something more like you old forts concept, that was an improvement that auto gathered resources seems like a better idea if you just want a 'work camp'.

    I again don't really see any system or mechanic that isn't already there, or could be by simply removing a couple of starting buildings...

    Other than the idea of certain buildings needing a minimum population, which is good, but kind of a seperate concept..

    I think in terms of empire management and growth, it would be a lot of work for basically nothing.. Right now a starting village is more or less a work camp.. castles and monasteries are a different story, but we could always attach some kind of resource or cash cost to those, as they start off 'better equipped'.
     
  19. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    The idea of the court boosting prices or industries, is again a thing that fits in Fealty.

    I am wracking my brain trying to conceive a conceptual 'product' from a court building..

    I mean if it gives a X% Boost to fealty and allows the conversion of criminals, those are two good things that would make me build it, especially with the proposed changes to fealty and production boosts, etc. I usually only end up staffing a court if I run out of other things to do.. So does it need to be a staffed building?

    I am not against the idea of a law yield, I just don't see any need for it that isn't taken by fealty or culture.. So why put the effort in?

    It is already quite a task to develop every town with adequate fealty and to a lesser extent culture, and the larger your empire the harder the task. So I would see a court helping to boost fealty production and maybe culture production (and criminal conversion) as enough of a reason for it to exist in my towns without the need to staff it.
     
  20. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yes, that's what I was saying. Just make the courts none staffed but provide bonuses, at least until if we ever figure out a good use for them. It could give a bonus to Yield Gold that markets produce.
     

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