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City Types and their Buildings, Effects, Features

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Oct 3, 2014.

  1. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yeah, that is cool. I see them mostly benefitting the Fealty Production, as Enforced Law means greater adherence to the King.

    Although if you added in the 'criminal' merchants, we would have to bar them from cities with a court! Or they run the risk of becoming outlaws for their shifty dealings! :D
     
  2. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I had another thought about the barracks at the castle.

    What if it could train Serfs (like a school) to become Levies.

    The Serf would lose his field work bonus, but gain a combat bonus. I don't know what exactly, maybe 10% strength or some kind of defensive bonus (representing their ability to stand together and work as a trained unit.)
     
  3. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    On this idea, my plan is to introduce a whole Military Expansion where we expand on all aspects of Military and Combat. One will be to introduce a new YIELD_TRAINING where you can train units to give them experience. The Barracks perhaps would do this with addition buildings giving bonuses plus allowing for new Promotions. Like an Archery Range would allow for Archery training.

    I never liked how actual combat was the only way to train your Troops. This is not historically correct. And in vanilla Col, some of the best promotions hardly ever see much active service as only at the end does the major battles take place and you only get to do battle for 100 turns.

    So, I want to introduce a system that works with both Combat Experience and pre-combat training. There could be a Veteran Promotion that only units that have survived combat gain, with different levels and these levels allow for some of the Top Military Promotions in your Military Academies. The REF would need to be buffed to compensate for this as well, which would actually require you to train your troops or when you do face off against the REF you units may be too poorly trained to be effective.

    I haven't studied much about how real life units train but I am sure that if you have survived combat once, you are way more prepared for any future combat and have learned what to expect, what to do, and what not to do.

    This way when your troops are ready for war, they are Ready for War. The AI will have access to this also so that they are not at a disadvantage.
     
  4. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yes, I like that plan!

    I like the way you say a Whole Military Expansion... sounds... sexy :p

    A lot of medieval combat seemed to be a fairly mechanical affair. Learning to fire X (I think it was 10 or 12) arrows a minute. strengthenig your arms to repeatedly chop or thrust and take hits on your shield, and huge amounts of formation drilling.
    Apart from the nobility it was mostly about stand still and hold the line.

    I like the idea of 'Veterancy Levels' (I am sure other mods in civ have done this sort of thing) That you get from surviving actual combat. That can access certain high end promotions.

    As well as 'Training Levels' that unlock certain training promotions, etc. and generally effect the discipline of your army.
    Certain Unit or Profession types could be 'capped' at certain training levels and only being accessed at higher levels of training.
    With the better professions costing significantly more in upkeep (and equipment too)

    We could also introduce through civics the Choice of a Professional or Feudal/Levy Army.

    (it is almost there already with the different lux. and food units)

    So the Pro Army would be much more expensive, have a much better standard of equipment and training across the board. (Like the recruit, cavalryman, commander set up)

    The Feudal Army would be much cheaper (with your nobility shouldering most of the cost) with the Knights being highly skilled and equipped, and the levy being cheaper and with less training levels and equipment. Mostly leather armour snd such.

    I also really liked the ideas about the 'combat abilities' like parry and block. I haven't had a chance to experience much of this yet, but I have seen that knights carry the Block ability
     
  5. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I finally noticed that we are in need of another Fealty administration building, for Trading cities we only have Village Hall->Manor, so I did some quick research and come up with a Chancery.

    So, the build would go

    Trading Cities: Village Hall->Manor->Chancery
    Military: Outpost->Bailey Keep->Castle Keep
    Monastery: Monastery (ends there for Monastery)

    Do, we need something extra for Monasteries? Perhaps the mentioned Cloister could be used for this. Under the current Fealty system Monasteries would be the hardest to gain Fealty, although with the right network bonuses the Monastery could produce quite a bit.

    Also, here is another idea. I think it takes to long for the player to finally be able to declare his capitol. I am at turn 160 something and still can't build a Palace yet. So, I am thinking of a new CityType, Capitol where the administration buildings would go something like: Lord's Hall, Lord's Manor, Palace. Then Capitol bonuses in Civics can actually be used. The first city a player founds will be his Capitol.

    Also again, how do other mods deal with a multitude of Buildings in the City Screen? Even in M:C the City Screen really starts to get crowded, so perhaps a system of allowed number of building types could be implemented. Like there could be only so many Slots available for Production Buildings, slots for Upgrade Buildings, and such. And you would have the option to demolish buildings that you have no use for to make room for more. Anyway, this isn't anything we have to worry about soon if ever.
     
  6. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    The Capitol system sounds good to me.

    Perhaps we could even have another connection bonus for connection to capitol.

    I think monasteries should be hard to 'loyalise' as they are quite powerful (Science and Resource production) and they are some what self contained with a split loyalty between church and state. Much more so than a normal city.
     
  7. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    Sounds interesting, but we need to figure out what happens if:
    • A player loses his Capitol
    • A player conquers a Capitol (then he will have two)
    • A player wants to move his Capitol to a new city
    There could possibly be more issues if we start thinking. At some point we will make an XML with city types. We should likely do that and then have bools like "force first city to be this" and "can only have one of this type". That could later be reused for making a holy city or something like that.

    Such an XML would also be the place to tell AI how many cities of each type it should make (might not be 1:1:1) and possibly restrictions preventing founding if you already have more than 60% of that single type. We could add lots of stuff with such an XML file.

    Other mods are not good in comparison because they generally have less buildings. Also all buildings are available from the start.

    I once proposed making building groups. Say we have a production group. We can then define say 3 locations for that group. The buildings themselves have no awareness of where they go. Instead the city will pick a free spot for it. Once all 3 spots are filled, you can't build more of that type, unless you actually delete one of the buildings. The city layout then depends on city type meaning some industrial type would have more production buildings and less say science buildings.

    Groups like that will make the screen less crowded, make XML setup easier as you don't have to place each building manually. Even more interestingly the same building do not have to be at the same spot in each city type, which gives more options for a nice graphical layout. Also it adds a new strategy element in picking buildings as you can't just start from the end and build everything.
     
  8. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    Maybe you could look in Civ4BtS to reactivate or port over their existing code for Capitols from Civ4 - this includes all kinds of cool stuff like:

    * enabling there to be slight costs from corruption in cities that scales by their distance from the Capitol; and you can define Civics/Techs that modify or remove the extent of this
    * being able to relocate the Capitol by building a Palace
    * also being able to mod Buildings that act as an additional Capitol decreasing corruption nearby (e.g. Forbidden Palace wonder) or that eliminate corruption in one city (Courthouse)
    * there are some XML tags in Colonization that give bonuses to the Capitol city which I think are currently unused.

    In the other situations NG listed; if you conquer a city with a Capitol building that building is destroyed (think there's a tag for destruction chance in BuildingInfos.xml). If your Capitol is destroyed you need to build a new Capitol building before you can get related bonuses.
     
  9. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    As far as I remember, there are some code sniplets like isCapital() or something alike in the vanilla code. Might be worth to have a look.
     
  10. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    One thing, which should really be decided is if the Capitol is a new city type or just an existing city type building. I read it as the first while other people read it as the latter. If it is an existing city type, then clearly we can just remove the building if needed, but then we need to reserve room for that building in all cities of that type.

    We may also consider if a city can change type and if more than one type can become capitol.
     
  11. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    If a player doesn't have a Capitol City, then they will be able to build the starting capitol building in an appropriate city.

    If Capitol City is ever conquered or otherwise acquired by another player the capitol is destroyed to save game issues if nothing else.

    If you build a Capitol in another city, the first capitol is destroyed, so this allows you to move your Capitol. This is how it worked in Civ4 I think.

    As, orlanth and the Commander pointed out there are several references to Capitols in the code just need to see what they do.

    Well, this wouldn't necessarily need a new citytype, even though I said citytype, at least for now. Just the first city a player builds is considered his capitol, then you can gain buildings later that allow him to move his capitol.

    That's a decent proposal, although I'm not sure about the random building placement as you get use to where a building is and it could get confusing.
     
  12. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I have 100 turns left in my current game and one issue I've noticed that I'd like to address in the next release is differentiating between the Citytypes. It's really confusing keep up with what types does what, and what type of city it is; there isn't any thing graphical enough to help with this. So I have some ideas.There could be different levels of cities...

    Villages
    Villages have a Smaller City screen and limited different Yield Capacity represented by a smaller resource bar. Villages could have cargo slots like Transports do, that would work like the current system with overflow and such. In order to advanced to Township, you need certain buildings built, such as a Town Hall for administration and a Warehouse to store goods. Once you reach Township you open up the default city screen. Villages can be disbanded. Starting units can only found villages. Perhaps with techs you can eventually found Towns.

    Towns

    Towns work like default cities. They can not be disbanded.

    Outposts
    Outpost work as resource gatherers and their screens represent this, such as a Mining Outpost. Only resources that are in the surrounding area are displayed on the Resource Bar. Outposts can be disbanded, they do not gather "Rebel Sentiment", so do not factor into that equation, nor are they able to advance to larger towns. In order to do this you must found a village over an Outpost.

    Military Outposts and Monasteries
    These will have their own unique city screen and would have limited building types as mentioned in other posts. I am hoping to perhaps set up a visible building in the center of the Plot. There is an option in BuildingInfos to have it set as bCenterInCity but not sure if that does anything. I could attempt to make the Building add a graphical Improvement to the plot that clears out an area like Bonuses do. So we could, make the Castle Improvement easy to see, center of the plot, with an area cleared out around it. I'd have to test this out to see if it can be done. If nothing else these buildings need to be made larger and more distinct so players can easily tell what type of city it is.

    Coding
    Also, for coding and implementation, we could add the new citytypes to MainScreen.py and have it load all the graphics like it does with the current city screen and just hide them until needed. Or, we can make a separate city screen python file for the new types that can be adjusted for each type of city when pulled up. When you click on a city, the python is told to change to the city screen, we could intercept the program there and have it call up the correct city screen type. I'm not sure if we can intercept plot clicks so that we say "listen" for a plot click and have it check if there is a city present, that may be handled by the exe.

    Cities
    As an added note, if we ever decided to go with a total Urban settlement then your Towns could grow into full fledged cities that have no space for Agriculture/Resource gathering. These city screens would thus not have the plots visible, but rather make room for extra buildings.
     
  13. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    We talked earlier about moving all city types to XML. It would be nice if we can configure cities with tags such as bCreatesRebelSentiment and bCanBeDisbanded.

    As for different city screens, we could do that with different buildings. The centre building producing "bells" could have a round button attached to it with an icon for the city type and possibly different graphics for the building for each city type.

    Completely reworking the city screen seems like a whole lot of work. I want to release this year :p
     
  14. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yes, this would be nice.

    They do have different center buildings on the city screen, I was referring to outside the city screen on the map. We could add something graphically simple for this release to the city screens though.

    Let me explain my English. When I say "this release", I mean the release coming up. When I say, "next release", I mean the release that will be after "this" release. Having different city screens, I feel, would really make the mod stand out and actually give it a really cool atmosphere to play in. The City Screens would all have their own look, sounds, interface, etc and this would really stand out amongst the mods out there. But not until, "next" release :p
     
  15. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I ran across this Free Imperial Cities and it gave me the idea that a player could found Cities, get them to a certain point and then simply turn them over to a NPC ruler so you can just tax them. Founding whole cities was something the kings actually did after they realized how profitable they where (they fought against their independence for so long). The Players actually found cities now, but this would be different in that the player would not have to worry about managing it one bit at a certain point, just turn it over to the AI and reap the rewards. In fact any of his cities can be handed over to the AI this way.

    I found this useful after my last war. I had five well developed cities, I then acquire two more through war. One I decided to keep for military logistics reasons the other I gave to my vassal. Which was something new I just added and it turned out really cool as I didn't want to have to deal with that city, and now I can tax it and trade with it still, which for me was much better option.
     
  16. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    We get to this every time we talk about domestic economy vs trade. It sounds very wrong to me that can increase income by donating your cities away. An empire building game is about gaining cities, not losing them.

    You talk about cities declaring independence where the king accepts it in exchange for taxes. That is something entirely different than just giving them away. We might consider popularity penalties for becoming too big. How big too big is can then be modded using CivEffects.
     
  17. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    I disagree with your first line there night.

    You are not giving away your cities, you are devolving their control to a Vassal Lord.

    It's still yours, you are just entrusting it's management to a vassal.

    That reminds me of the Crusader Kings 2 system.

    As the 'Leader' of a nation your avatar had a skill level that determined how many lands he could directly manage. The more you go over this level, the less efficient they all become and the angrier your vassals become.

    So you hand them over to your vassals, which makes them more loyal and such. (managing vassal loyalty is a big part of the game that can see them rebel or plot against you) In exchange you get tax and can call their levy in times of war.

    I think before this system will get really good, we need to fix the AI and vassal city interactions, as generally they just shrink down to nothing and convert all their people to warriors.

    BUT

    If we can develop a set of really good vassal interactions, and fix the vassal AI so that they don't run your cities into the ground through sheer incompetence, this would be an excellent game feature.

    Stuff Like:
    Raise Levy (generate an army)
    Grow Settlement (trade food for more population = more taxes)
    Set Quotas (Essentially a free trade to you like a foreign import, that sets what resource they have to supply to you as part of their vassal obligations, like an automated vassal deal on the diplomacy screen, so you don't have to keep going an asking for it.)

    I already really enjoy the concept of the vassal system, I just find myself always wanting to be able to do more with it.
     
  18. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    So, in my scenario would it have been best to raze the city instead of giving it to my Vassal? Why even have vassals? My personal ideas of M:C is not only to be an empire builder but also a Historical simulation. Perhaps, the historical part is even more important to me. And kings, historically, would found cities for the soul purpose of taxing them. Obviously, it would be more beneficial to control the city yourself, but I for one have no desire to have a multitude of cities, 5 to 6 is usually tops for me.

    This would be a cool idea.
     
  19. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    This reminds me I bought this game last x-mas on steam, downloading it now.

    What is funny about this is it is true to life. I myself playing M:C, if I get more than 5 or 6 cities, all those extra ones really start to suffer as my managing skills become to spread thin.

    Yep, that's what I do.

    Hang in there bro, this is all coming. The Vassal controls his cities just like any Native Civ, so we just need to improve its AI. Also, when it turns all the citizens to warriors that's something that its coded to do, but this should be change for sure. It would be simple to do.
     
  20. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    CK2 is fantastic, but I do warn you, there is something of a steep learning curve to it. These days though the game is massive (stretches all the way to india!!).

    I have only really had one successful game,(then it updated and invalidated the saves..) but it was freaking awesome game! I was a King of england, and after much war and struggle, I managed to control about 1 to 2/3rds of the world map. and all of western europe! :D

    The big breakthrough came when I married a relative of the byzantium emperor, waited for him to die and a child take his place, then pushed my claim for the title, levied every soldier I had, bought a massive mercenary army, sailed across the world and seiged and captured constantinople, forced the boy emperor to hand over the crown. Took control of the largest empire on the map in one fell swoop!! Score!

    I also had both th Pope and Orthodox Patriarach as my vassals. so suffice to say... I was a bit of a badass! At one point I had 4 sets of permanent personal guard, that were each larger than any one kingdom could muster altogether, including their levies!
     

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