City Worker Professions also requiring Equipment [OPEN]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I had once considered to have city worker professions also require equipment.
This equipment has now also been implemented as goods.

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We now have e.g.

• Tools
• Fieldworker Tools
• Household Goods

Thus e.g.

• Profession Miner could require (20) Tools
• Profession Tool Smith could require (20) Tools
• Profession Famer could require (20) Fieldworker Tools
• Profession Tobacco Planter could require (20) Fieldworker Tools
• Profession Oil Trader could require (20) Household Goods*
• Profession Cigar Maker could require (20) Household Goods*
• Profession Hunter could require (20) Guns
• Profession Butcher could require (20) Blades
• Profession Preacher could require (20) Bakery Products
• Profession Statesman could require (20) Luxury Goods
• ...

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* Household Goods should probably be renamed into Artisan Equipment.
(Or whatever sounds best in English. Open to suggestions.)

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AI would generally be able to handle this without problems.
(Since it can buy Equipment it needs by Gold.)

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And because it was asked several times:
The Profession "Settler" would bring the first starting tools and equipment with it.
So every newly founded city would e.g. allow at least a Carpenter, a Lumberjack and a Farmer to work.
(So i.e. when the settlers settles down he would drop into the City 40 Tools, 40 Fieldworker Equipment and 20 Household Goods.)

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This would of course change game play a lot.
It would be more effort to bring a colony up to business.

The mod would become one giant step more "economy sim".
But maybe it would be fun.

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Well, I am looking for feedback.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

hmm .. do I understand correctly that tools will be required to "equip" a specialist in these professions?
why, then, should not both the miner and the stone cutter (maybe a lumberjack too?) demand tools for their work?

the idea is interesting, but it is not clear which professions should be equipped with tools and which should not (and why?). in principle, almost all professions can be "equipped" with the appropriate tools. but this is not about micromanagement, but about a significant complication at the beginning of the game. at least it seems so to me. but the idea itself is not bad. need to be tested.

 

[raystuttgart]

hmm .. do I understand correctly that tools will be required to "equip" a specialist in these professions?

It is not about Specialists / Expert Units. It is about equipping the Professions to work in the City

why, then, should not both the miner and the stone cutter (maybe a lumberjack too?) demand tools for their work?

Miners and Lumberjacks would as well. I have just not listed all the Professions. I have just given examples.

the idea is interesting, but it is not clear which professions should be equipped with tools and which should not (and why?).

Each City Profession would require some equipment. There would not be a single City Profession that could work without.

but this is not about micromanagement, but about a significant complication at the beginning of the game

The "Settler" Profession would bring already some tools to equip the first workers.
(Which would also make the "Settler Profession" a bit more costly.)

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But yes, after that you would need longer to build up the industry and production of your first colonies.
Because a lot of the gold you would earn in the beginning would need to be invested to equip the workers.

It would dramatically slow down the growth and expansion of the colonies.
Since a lot of investment would be required to get them to work profitably and self sustained.

Also losing a colony to Natives or another Colonial Nation would be a big blow that hurts.
Since you would also lose a lot of gold that you had invested to equip the workers.

 

[raystuttgart]

I have updated the thread so it is a bit more clear.
It is generally about all City Professions.
(I think the word "indoor" was confusing.)

 

[Chentaur]

Question, won't the colonists become useless after their landfall if things were implemented this way? Cos the ships would need to return to the European ports to stock some goods before returning back to the new world, except if you would give the players some starting tools for lumberjacks or carpenter (I realize there's a country starting with carpenter).

What would become of the carpenter if he unable to work right away?

 

[raystuttgart]

Question, won't the colonists become useless after their landfall if things were implemented this way? Cos the ships would need to return to the European ports to stock some goods before returning back to the new world, except if you would give the players some starting tools for lumberjacks or carpenter (I realize there's a country starting with carpenter).

The "starting tools" would come with the Settler Profession which is already implemented in the mod and would just need to be adjusted.
So no they would not be useless since each newly founded colony would already have at least some equipment for the first workers.

 

[Chentaur]

I somewhat agree to the idea, but also somewhat not. I'm thinking if it could become a part of the mod, but only given as a choice. The same way where players could choose between 1 plot radius or 2 plot radius which in fact giving a big impact in gameplay, especially in terms of difficulty.

 

[raystuttgart]

... but only given as a choice.

It is not possible to implement this as a game option because it is base XML configuration (and game options can not turn that on or off).
Also it would so strongly impact balancing that a lot of further gameplay and balancing decisions may depend on it.

It is either "yes" or "no".
(No "maybe" and no "option".)

But of course we would test this internally (with team and supporters) if we like it.
(It is however quite some effort so we should think about it first.)

 

[raystuttgart]

I added a new voting option because I feel that people currently just vote "no" simply because they are worried not because the idea generally is not interesting.

New voting option:
"I am not sure. But I am worried about the impact."

 

[ArchdukeLiet]

I understand the concept of giving those tools and goods a function.
However instead of needing them to 'equip' for city professions, I rather would see them to be added to the required building materials when constructing (medium/high level) buildings.

So for example:
- The service building trees (e.g. saloon, medical office, etc.) would require household goods.
- The production building trees (e.g. stable, tanner, etc.) would require fieldworker tools. --> the name might need to be adjusted to something like artisan tools, to fit the indoor city activities better.

So to the poll a 'no' from my side, but this alternative could work in my opinion.

 

[raystuttgart]

However instead of needing them to 'equip' for city professions, I rather would see them to be added to the required building materials when constructing (medium/high level) buildings.

That is inconsistend and unimmersive if you compare it with the "On Map Professions" and e.g. Improvements.
Also Professions like e.g. Tobacco Planter or Lumberjack or Farmer do not need a Building to work and thus would in your solution not require equipment.

A building just does not need any equipment.
It is the workers that need the equipment.

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So for me the only thing that is

• consistent
• immersive
• working nicely for gameplay

is to use the Professions like for eveything else.
This mod is already built heavily on the Professions concepts e.g. also for Military.

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Why should we handle "On Map Professions" differently than "City Professions"?
Wouldn't it make more sense to apply the same logic for both?

 

[ArchdukeLiet]

Yes, I agree that it would be logical to apply to both.

 

[raystuttgart]

Well ok, it seems this concept is not very popular, so let us consider it "canceled".

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In my opinion this idea would have had a lot of potential though to create an even more satisfying gameplay to become independent of Europe.
Yes, gameplay might have gotten a bit slower, but decisions would have needed to be considered even more wisely.

1) It would have made the economy gameplay a bit more strategic to require small amounts of equipment for City Professions.
2) Europe would not just have been a place to sell stuff, but also to buy equipment and bring it to the colonies to build up colonial economy.
3) It would have made the game feel more historically accurate and thus more immersive - because the colonies would depend more on Europe.
4) Producing certain goods in midgame would have become even more strategically important for expansion, being able to equip more workers.
5) Losing or winning a colony would have a much bigger impact due to the higher invest and thus actually also feel much more immersive as well.
6) It would have felt logically consistent since the "on map professions" also require equipment (and e.g. Pioneers and Miners in reality need similar equipment)

In summary:
More strategic depth and more immersion.

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What we were talking about was basically just the following:
You want to have a colonist work as Lumberjack in a Colony?
Well, then you need to supply him with 20 Tools, which you can either produce or buy in Europe.

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Personally I feel it would have been worth a try to implement and test how it feels.
But I will bow to majority vote of community and team and not try to convince anymore.

CANCELED

 

[MrNulll]

I think you made a persuasive case for this to be explored further. It is a shame that the idea is cancelled before more people had a chance to join the debate.

Maybe it could be left undecided for a little bit longer.

Anyway, I vote yes because I feel it is entirely in keeping with the existing gameplay.

 

[raystuttgart]

It is a shame that the idea is cancelled before more people had a chance to join the debate.

Yesterday it seemed like less than 1/3 community members supprted it.
Even now there are still more people against it and some just afraid of impact.

I think you made a persuasive case for this to be explored further.

I thought so too and was thus pretty suprised by the negative reaction.
But on the other side many of my highly successful features started like this (e.g "Settler Profession", "Happiness", ...)

Maybe it could be left undecided for a little bit longer.

Ok, I will keep it open for a bit longer - since it is kind of trending towards 50:50 again.
But in modding there is just little point in arguing about personal taste.

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Still, for this to be implemented it would need:

• 2/3 community majority in favour of it
• no single team member voting against it

Both conditions are currently not met.

Status reset to:

OPEN

 

[jooe]

Even though you seem to have already decided on the fate of this possible feature,[edit] let me add a few words on my vote of "I am worried":
First, please consider the scenario I am usually playing is a gigantic map with marathon speed and high difficulty. If I reach WoI, I usually have around 50 settlements and the REF I have to fight might well have several hundreds of units. A game usually lasts months of real life time. I am saying this, because I am sure different playstyles could affect the opinion on this feature.

Now the implementation of the proposed feature would stretch the early game a lot and make it quite a bit harder - the first century might pass before settlements reach the stage of city halls and lumbermills. The micromanagement during that time might be interesting and add to the feeling that even keeping a settlement alive was hard for the early settlers [edit: immersion!]. I think this fits my personal playstyle well - but consider that the early game already got a lot more complicated with clay needed even for simple buildings while this resource is not abundant as wood, ore and stone. In my current 4.0(git version) game, setting up the basic production of building resources (wood,tools,clay,stone) took much longer than in 3.0. Sometimes I could not keep myself from some "cheaty feeling" (incl. some save scumming) highly profitable trade with the natives to make early money and simply buy some buildings - instead of sending a ship to transport the necessary resources around.
Worry No. 1: The game becomes a lot more complicated. This might be funny for a few players like me (and you probably), but keep away those players with less time for gaming because they never get to even found their 2nd or 3rd settlement during a game session. Although WTP does not need players to pay for it, a smaller player base could decrease support for the mod in the longer term.

Another aspect for me is the later game. In earlier versions of the mod (2.x, 3.0) I often tried to manage resources in late game by trade automatisation. You all probably know that this is still far from optimal, and in my game it did also cause a massive slowdown of turn times. (without auto trade routes 2-3min, with auto trade routes > 5 min). But to have the resources available in every settlement where I want to new workers would either mean to micro their transport in addition to the units or to automate this as well (making turn times even slower). Consider that in my late game situation I usually add around 5-10 units to my settlements each turn ...
Worry No. 2: The impact of additional micro makes the later game extremely tedious.
(note that No. 2 could be alleviated by 1) optimized trade routes and/or 2) the possibility to equip a unit with the necessary tools in settlement A, move them to settlement B and add them there - but 2) would require a significant additional implementation effort)

 

[MrNulll]

Even though you seem to have already decided on the fate of this possible feature,[edit] let me add a few words on my vote of "I am worried":
First, please consider the scenario I am usually playing is a gigantic map with marathon speed and high difficulty. If I reach WoI, I usually have around 50 settlements and the REF I have to fight might well have several hundreds of units. A game usually lasts months of real life time. I am saying this, because I am sure different playstyles could affect the opinion on this feature.

Now the implementation of the proposed feature would stretch the early game a lot and make it quite a bit harder - the first century might pass before settlements reach the stage of city halls and lumbermills. The micromanagement during that time might be interesting and add to the feeling that even keeping a settlement alive was hard for the early settlers [edit: immersion!]. I think this fits my personal playstyle well - but consider that the early game already got a lot more complicated with clay needed even for simple buildings while this resource is not abundant as wood, ore and stone. In my current 4.0(git version) game, setting up the basic production of building resources (wood,tools,clay,stone) took much longer than in 3.0. Sometimes I could not keep myself from some "cheaty feeling" (incl. some save scumming) highly profitable trade with the natives to make early money and simply buy some buildings - instead of sending a ship to transport the necessary resources around.
Worry No. 1: The game becomes a lot more complicated. This might be funny for a few players like me (and you probably), but keep away those players with less time for gaming because they never get to even found their 2nd or 3rd settlement during a game session. Although WTP does not need players to pay for it, a smaller player base could decrease support for the mod in the longer term.

Another aspect for me is the later game. In earlier versions of the mod (2.x, 3.0) I often tried to manage resources in late game by trade automatisation. You all probably know that this is still far from optimal, and in my game it did also cause a massive slowdown of turn times. (without auto trade routes 2-3min, with auto trade routes > 5 min). But to have the resources available in every settlement where I want to new workers would either mean to micro their transport in addition to the units or to automate this as well (making turn times even slower). Consider that in my late game situation I usually add around 5-10 units to my settlements each turn ...
Worry No. 2: The impact of additional micro makes the later game extremely tedious.
(note that No. 2 could be alleviated by 1) optimized trade routes and/or 2) the possibility to equip a unit with the necessary tools in settlement A, move them to settlement B and add them there - but 2) would require a significant additional implementation effort)

If my understanding of this concept is correct then I don't actually think the micro management would be much of an issue. The concern would be ensuring that the required equipment is available at any settlement. It 'could' be micromanaged, but it would more generally encourage players to ensure settlements are properly stocked with anything they might need to grow. Sure, it would slow down settlement building, but this is not a bad thing in my opinion.

 

[jooe]

The concern would be ensuring that the required equipment is available at any settlement. It 'could' be micromanaged, but it would more generally encourage players to ensure settlements are properly stocked with anything they might need to grow.

Which is exactly what I mean.
Settlements currently need wood, tools (ore to produce them), stone, clay available to construct buildings. They would now also require household goods and fieldworker tools (and then at some point the raw resources to make them yourself) to add units. Avoiding to fill up warehouse space even with the byproducts of secondary production on the city plot and the unequal production of those resources means sending ships or wagons every few turns. Now tell me that's no issue

 

[MrNulll]

Which is exactly what I mean.
Settlements currently need wood, tools (ore to produce them), stone, clay available to construct buildings. They would now also require household goods and fieldworker tools (and then at some point the raw resources to make them yourself) to add units. Avoiding to fill up warehouse space even with the byproducts of secondary production on the city plot and the unequal production of those resources means sending ships or wagons every few turns. Now tell me that's no issue

It is not an issue

We all know the game is about resource management. Throwing more of the same into the mix is more strategy, more challenge and more fun.

 

[raystuttgart]

Now tell me that's no issue

It is only an issue if you do not enjoy that.

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See, I am a "perfectionist player" and a "micro manager" and a "strategical planner".
I like to solve challenges of managing my economy and I like to plan many turns ahead.

I like to figure out the "perfect strategy" to play the most efficient possible.
So the more "variables" I have to consider in my choices, the more fun it is to me.

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But I also fully understand that there are also "casual players" that do not want to plan many turns ahead.
Those players may simply play for the story that unfolds in front of them and do not want to be burdened by complex systems.

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This just ends up in the constant discussion about personal taste.
There is no wrong or right in it. It is just about what is fun to you personally.