City Worker Professions also requiring Equipment [OPEN]

[Ramstormp]

I am not sure about impact, but I have a feeling I would like it. Just to be clear...If you temporarily need, or are forced, to change professions of a unit, will you lose the resources used for the initial profession and would you need the resources to change back to the initial profession?

 

[raystuttgart]

... will you lose the resources used for the initial profession and would you need the resources to change back to the initial profession?

You would never lose any equipment if you change into another Profession without the equipment.
Just like with all Professions, the equipment not needed would be dumped back as goods into storage.

It would behave exactly like with the "On Map Professions".
There you also do not lose the tools if you e.g. have a a Unit in Pioneer Profession switch to Colonist Profession.

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It is the existing Profession System we are talking about - which can technically already support this concept.
We are not talking about programming something new, just about changing XML config.

 

[Schmiddie]

Due to all the new micro-management features I fear that there is not enough time to establish lots of colonies. It's getting harder and harder to built up big colonies.

If it would be possible to extent the approx. 300 turns to the revolution to a balanced longer period...then I would appreciate such features. Ok, you already can change the turns in the xml, but that's not the same...

 

[raystuttgart]

If it would be possible to extent the approx. 300 turns to the revolution to a balanced longer period...then I would appreciate such features.

If you want, you can start a new thread about that.
It sounds like we could indeed consider to implement something like that.

Generally we can easily extend the turns to revolution to something longer.
It can be configured in Civ4GameSpeedInfo.xml to whatever we like.

Ok, you already can change the turns in the xml, but that's not the same...

What do you mean? What else do you have in mind?
Everything related to the length of the game can be handled in XML.

Also AI generally takes the XML values also as "target values" to declare revolution.
Otherwise it plays by the same rules as Human players and thus needs similar time to build an empire.

 

[Bomax]

Hi Ray,

I voted again your feature because I am/was afraid of the impact on the game, mostly on the early game (which is already slowed down due to the new settler implementation and would still be slowed by the new movement cost system applied to scout which are the main source of gold in early game). My other concern was mainly the need of more transport to feed city worker requirement (either ship or convoie) because buying or constructing transport take time in early game. In addition, it would require much more micromanagement.

Slowing down early game may be positive to give more emphase on the discovery era (even if the destruction of the Aztec and Inca empires was historically very rapid). However, as the game is slowed and slowed down, game length extension and calendar adaptation should probably be done, as suggested by Schmiddie. In vanilla, the last era have much more turn than in the early era, which might reflect technologie improvement... however as you are planning to add latter technologie and social advancements, it would probably be better to have same turn length through the game. This would however require to adapt other feature in the game such as:

1) gold or taxe request by the king. Currently, your implementation is much better than in vanilla or previous mod in which the king was a complet psychopath asking you money as soon as you have. However, historically, gold and taxe request should be much less probable because the interest of kingdoms was to cover the cost of expedition and to expend (thus not to cut in colonial investment). In my opinion, the probability of a king request should be weighted on the turn cout and on the rebellious feeling (with some min-max thersholds).
2) Rebellious feeling should increase quicker in late game than in early game due to the taxe rate. Using the taxe rate to weight the number of belt influencing the rebellious feeling in colonies should work...

Modifying these features could potentially leave more gold in early game to buy ship and transport and to trade with the motherland (to feed the needs of city worker). In addition, it will be nice if trading and native trading are more viable as a begging starting strategies compared to scouting (e.g. if you want to place your first colonie on a small islands far away from continents).

As the micromanagement become more and more complex, the other features which should be adjusted and improved is storage capacity and the autotrade system, respectively. For storage, I am worried that storage would be too limited with the new implemented yield but my main concern is the setting of the autotrade system which is really painful.

In my opinion, the implementation of equipment for city worker need some works on these points before...

 

[raystuttgart]

1) gold or taxe request by the king.

Those mainly depend on how much you trade and also King attitude (which also depends on "Rebel Rate").
And also the amount of gold requests already depends on the size of your colonies.
So I see absolutley no issue with the current balancing of those.

2) Rebellious feeling should increase quicker in late game than in early game due to the taxe rate.

Rebellious feeling increases due to having more Liberty Bells produced.
Also there is a Founding Father that will increase production of Liberty Bells by tax rate.
Having it rise automatically just due to high tax rate is a no-go for me. (Because it would reward getting high taxes.)

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So for me there are no changes to those points required.
Both features work perfectly fine as they are for me.

Summary:
We are discussing here changes that are in no way "necessary" just to justify another feature.

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But well, moding is always about personal taste.

This here is planned to be improved / fixed:

autostrade system which is really painful

 

[raystuttgart]

it would probably be better to have same turn length through the game

I once thought so as well in TAC already - but was not interested to start a big discussion about it.
It feels kind of strange that the number of months per turns change so heavily. --> This change was explicitly introduced in TAC and is not Vanilla.

Because it also e.g. implies that a trip to Europe in the beginning of the game takes 2 years and in the end of the game it takes 6 months.
Do ships somehow get 4 times faster to some technology change in that period or what?

But to be honest, I never cared enough to change it.
(Or to be more precise I never cared enough to have endless discussions about it, because it would be changed very fast.)

Edit:
I changed that.
It is explained here.

 

[1ShadowCreature]

Hello. Late to the party, i voted yes. This update or profession change is thematically sound with the other professions needing special equipments for their jobs. Makes me think that it is not a halfassed system with only some jobs needing tools and not others.

 

[Isabelxxx]

No for me.

Considering the current state of the mod, more micromanagement doens't address any of the current [lategame] problems and just add more complexity to the beginning (even if it's aligned with the usage of tools at other professions). On lategame you would simply buy tools on Europe with all the excess money you have, so it's just another tedious step without any real significance.

IF the trade routes are finally revamped AND money exponential growth is fixed, then maybe it makes sense to give this a thought and how to implement it.

 

[raystuttgart]

IF the trade routes are finally revamped AND money exponential growth is fixed ...

Both of those are planned.

... then maybe it makes sense ...

I never said that this feature should be implemented in next release.

... more micromanagement ....

The core of this concept is not really "micromanagement", it is mostly about meaningful "gold spending".

... doens't address any of the current [lategame] problems ...

I disagree, because spending more gold in early game and midgame will reduce "too much money" in lategame.

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Once you brought enough equipment to a city there would not be any additional mircromanagement anymore.
The only thing that would really happen is that on the trips back to the Colonies you would also buy something.

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Well, so far there is nothing decided on this yet and it is not a top priority.
We will see what will happen with this in the future ...

 

[raystuttgart]

Makes me think that it is not a halfassed system with only some jobs needing tools and not others.

I kind of feel the same, especially since we now already have "Field Worker Tools" and "Household Goods" (maybe to be renamed to "Artisan Equipment").
People have always been complaining about "Goods" not being interesting enough other than being for cash ... and now they refuse to make them more interesting ...

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The only real reason not to implement it is that some players somehow are afraid of every new features that adds a bit of complexity to the mod.
But if "adding complexity" is really a problem than I could more or less directly stop modding ... because the huge majory of my features will do that ...

Actual Triangle Trade will add complexity ...
Upkeep and Taxation will add complexity ...
Logistics and Supply will add complexity ...
Social Progress System will add complexity ...
Combat Overhaul will add complexity ...
Connection and Distance to Capitol will add complexity ...
Religions of the New World will add complexity ...
....

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When people say "micromanagement" they most of the time mean "complexity".
And yeah, you can turn "complexity" into "micromanagement" if you like.
But you don't have to ... you can also just "macro manage" it and take it relaxed.

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Since I want to create new gameplay mechanics that is not possible without adding new "gameplay rules".
And whenever "new gameplay rules" are added, that makes the game a bit more complex and also challenging.
So people need to be aware that if even just the already accepted features will be implemented, WTP will become more complex.

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Otherwise there is actually very little need for me to argue about this specific feature - the world does not end for me if it does not get WTP core mod.
I can easily mod it into my private modmod only since it is just XML. I simply offered to share it with the rest of community but accept if it does not want it.
The WTP core mod is most of all the "biggest common nominator" that team and community can agree on - the rest is simply left out ...

 

[Lmk]

Hi everyone, please excuse me this is way too late to join in.
From what I have taken from the idea and discussions, I think it would feed my already aggressive playstyle (war monger) towards the ai colonies.
New colonys harder to found and get going, enemy colonys already up and working, just take them over to expand quickly.

Still I would like to have it, always more micromanagement and complexity, slower pace... Does it for me.
Just a personal wish.
Best wishes.

 

[raystuttgart]

Still I would like to have it, ...

Then maybe you should also vote for it in the poll.

 

[Lmk]

Right, thanks.
Did it Ray.

 

[raystuttgart]

I think it would feed my already aggressive playstyle ...

Never really thought of that until you said it ...

But yeah, losing or winning a colony would have a bigger impact due to the bigger invest.
Attacking other colonies not just for the colonists but also for the equipment would be very attractive.

Also the equipment might be one of the first goods you may want to secure - because it is also quite expensive in relation to others.
In "New Hope" aka WTP 4.0 e.g. "Field Worker Tools" and "Household Goods" are some of the most expensive goods in the game.

 

[Lmk]

Super excited for "New Hope", Kenshi has finally worn off...
Big thanks for all your hard work, dear modders.

 

[adriankowaty]

I kind of feel the same, especially since we now already have "Field Worker Tools" and "Household Goods" (maybe to be renamed to "Artisan Equipment").
People have always been complaining about "Goods" not being interesting enough other than being for cash ... and now they refuse to make them more interesting ...

------------

The only real reason not to implement it is that some players somehow are afraid of every new features that adds a bit of complexity to the mod.
But if "adding complexity" is really a problem than I could more or less directly stop modding ... because the huge majory of my features will do that ...

Actual Triangle Trade will add complexity ...
Upkeep and Taxation will add complexity ...
Logistics and Supply will add complexity ...
Social Progress System will add complexity ...
Combat Overhaul will add complexity ...
Connection and Distance to Capitol will add complexity ...
Religions of the New World will add complexity ...
....

------------

When people say "micromanagement" they most of the time mean "complexity".
And yeah, you can turn "complexity" into "micromanagement" if you like.
But you don't have to ... you can also just "macro manage" it and take it relaxed.

------------

Since I want to create new gameplay mechanics that is not possible without adding new "gameplay rules".
And whenever "new gameplay rules" are added, that makes the game a bit more complex and also challenging.
So people need to be aware that if even just the already accepted features will be implemented, WTP will become more complex.

------------

Otherwise there is actually very little need for me to argue about this specific feature - the world does not end for me if it does not get WTP core mod.
I can easily mod it into my private modmod only since it is just XML. I simply offered to share it with the rest of community but accept if it does not want it.
The WTP core mod is most of all the "biggest common nominator" that team and community can agree on - the rest is simply left out ...

In general I don't really mind increased complexity of the mod - I in general prefer playing complex, brain-entertaining games and mods and welcome economic sim character which is being enforced into your mod.
What I would like to bring into mind is a bit different issue - at start player has little ships and purchasing them from Europe is expensive. It's hard to load settlers or goods on existing ships as most of early ships have low cargo slots. And city storages are limited too.
Thus while I don't mind professions and pioneers getting goods as equipment cost, what I would like to suggest is equipment purchase feature - so that you can pay Europe-price (maybe inflated to cover shipping cost) for equipping your units. It would work similarly to hurrying production of buildings, ships and cannon batteries - or use the same mechanic, but it would solve the issue which I partially face already in current mod version and I think will apply to your new mechanic aswell, that is even possibility to assign such professions requires the goods being physically existent in storage for assignment option to appear. Should you add option to quick purchase goods in order to outfit professions and pioneers/settlers in early game this change could be welcomed, while the player growth would still be limited - as main limiting factor in early and midgame is money.
Otherwise I wouldn't find this option you proposed really increased difficulty of the game - it would just add tediousness aspect as you could not, for example, outfit pioneer or gunsmith without having all the required goods already in storage - and thus require player to commit 60% of his actions in early game economy to ship everything to town where setting production is ongoing.

 

[raystuttgart]

what I would like to suggest is equipment purchase feature

I do not like "beaming" goods.
Only normal shipping with transports is immersive to me.

It would work similarly to hurrying production of buildings,

I hate that feature. It feels like a lazy exploit to me and I never use it. --> That is why I implemented "construction supplies" in WTP 4.0.
I just leave "hurrying" in there because AI needs it and some players got used to it. --> But I play with house rules to never use it in my games.

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I would indeed want the goods to have to be transported by Ship - that is one of the core pillars of this concept.
Because then there is some "cost of opportunity" if you want to transport more settlers from Europe or equimpment from Europe.

I explicitly want that players need to make that strategic choice.
Thus they will also have to invest more and also expand slower.

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So sorry, but no to that suggestion for me.
It would kill half of the gameplay of the feature for me.

Also it is just additional effort to implement something that could potentially be an exploit.
(e.g. Equipping into the Profession to beam the equipment from Europen and then sell it again to e.g. Port Royal for profit.)

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It's hard to load settlers or goods on existing ships ...

You could equip those colonist in Profession Settler.
Because that way they would also bring equipment to the colonies.

It may be a workaround, but it is still 10 times more immersive to me than "beaming".
And it also comes at some "cost of opportunity" since you could not equip them as e.g. Pioneers or Soldiers.

 

[adriankowaty]

I do not like "beaming" goods.

Ok, fair enough, I am not pushy on it, it's your mod afterall.
If you think that shipping stuff around should be enchanced by the mod, let have it that way.

 

[Nightinggale]

Thus while I don't mind professions and pioneers getting goods as equipment cost, what I would like to suggest is equipment purchase feature - so that you can pay Europe-price (maybe inflated to cover shipping cost) for equipping your units. It would work similarly to hurrying production of buildings, ships and cannon batteries

If you want to buy what it takes to make say a pioneer, then double click on a colonist on the dock in Europe and select pioneer. Once arriving in the new world change profession and let another unit become a pioneer. This way you can transport cargo for professions without using up more slots.