Civ 4 (original) Beginning to dominate Warlord, time to level up?

[Calvin Beck]

Hi, I've gotten to the point where I can beat the AI pretty well on Warlord. I just have one question about SAMs. Once I build an effective carrier fleet with jet fighters, if my enemy already has a lot of SAMs in their coastal cities, my air power is pretty much rendered useless. I usually conduct airstrikes on enemy cities to soften them up before landing marines and modern armor from transports. I'm trying to cripple enemy infantry before landing my marines. Sending them into a well fortified coastal city usually turns out to be a bloodbath (for my marines). Landing modern armor on an adjacent square then attacking on the next turn seems to be a better tactic with a much better survivabilty rate. I was just wondering if there is a way to counter SAMs. I'm playing my last game on Warlord where I can pretty much dominate a modern era war, just for fun.

 

[a pen-dragon]

First a question: by original do you mean the 2005 vanilla game or one of the Expansions (Warlords / BtS)?

My experience is mostly limited to BtS, but IIRC SAM can only intercept once per turn, meaning that a sufficient amount of fighters will do damage.

Additionally, marines are weak. IMHO modern armors are better at amphibious attacks, since they can take city raider promotions.

Also keep in mind that this is not the type of war you want to fight, especially on higher difficulty levels. Usually it is better to attack earlier.

 

[Calvin Beck]

Thank you for the reply, a pen-dragon. Yes I'm referring to the 2005 vanilla game. I think you're right about the SAM only attacking once per turn. I think I have noticed that. And you're right about marines being weak, they can be wiped out by riflemen. I have tried using modern armors in amphibious mode and it seems to work. I thought that there may be a penalty for that though, since they don't have the amphibious promotion. I try to promote them to city raider II level before attacking cities. I think that's what Pentagon does? I'll have to get used to attacking sooner with earlier units. I just love watching the modern units dish out destruction. It's fun. How much earlier should I attack in a Noble level game? Tanks? Cavalry? Thanks.

 

[mycophobia]

I've heard at Noble level even a Warrior rush can be quite successful depending on how close your neighbor is lol. But more generally Catapults are very strong in Vanilla, if you beeline Construction you can throw together a stack of those by themselves and go roll someone. Cavalry are super good, you can beeline Military Tradition and Gunpowder and do the same with them. As far as single unit rushes go that's what I know how to do.

 

[a pen-dragon]

How much earlier should I attack in a Noble level game?

In general there are several possible attack opportunities:

• directly upon starting the game, a warrior rush, although this is not viable on higher difficulties.
• with an early strong unit, e.g. chariots, axes, horse archers
• with catapults
• (with trebs) I really do not like the late medieval period to wage wars, but it is possible.
• Cannons (+ older units, usually mostly maces)
• Cavs and Rifles+Cannons/Artillery
• Infantry + Cannons/Artillery
• Tanks (+Fighters)
• later stuff

IMHO there are only two unique units that change these things. The others only change details. Not all may be included in vanilla:

• Quechuas, as they shred archers, meaning it is possible to rush deity AIs with them
• Immortals, same but they come later

Basically on higher difficulty levels the advantage the AI gets increases with each era, meaning earlier attacks will be easier. OTOH your economy needs to be able to deal with the additional cities, meaning later attacks can grab more cities more efficiently. Also you will generally start at a disadvantage, meaning you have to catch up, and attack later.

Keep in mind that any AI can be beaten with a sufficient number of Tanks. This is generally faster than teching up to better units and using less of them. I know that at some point in the game Tanks did cause collateral damage (and could get drill promotions!), if this is the case in vanilla, they become even stronger.

If you are on a continent with many AIs or a Pangaea, Catapults are good for getting land. If you have enough land I prefer to tech up to some renaissance units. In BtS I go for Cuirs, in vanilla, Cavs are good if you have a sufficient advantage, else Cannons, as a Cav rush into Rifles is a bad idea. There is no single set time when one should attack, it does depend on the map.

IIRC, in Vanilla Siege units can kill other units. In BtS this is not the case. This means that in vanilla only siege attacks are possible.

Noble is the level where the human player and AI get the same modifiers, meaning the AI bonus does not increase. Still I would recommend you to try out how soon you can reliably take down an AI. Try starting with a Catapult attack on a Pangaea map.

I thought that there may be a penalty for that though, since they don't have the amphibious promotion.

There is a significant penalty, but modern armors having almost double the strength of a marine together with CR promotions more than make up for it.

I just love watching the modern units dish out destruction. It's fun.

It is. Be aware that there are other options, as you might find them to be fun too.

 

[Calvin Beck]

Thank you for the detailed reply. Very helpful.

I'm in the late game now around 1619 AD. Playing custom continents, one per team, on warlord setting with 3 AI opponents. I'm playing as Ashoka vs. Kublai Khan, Ghengis Khan, and Huyana Caupec. Fast workers, no anarchy, and halved city maintenance costs are working out well. I've got about 8 galleons loaded with cavalry and four frigates stationed near my weakest opponent's coast. I plan to bombard soon with my frigates and land cavalry in adjacent squares. I think I have enough cavalry to attack more than one city. I don't plan on capturing any of them unless I can see a strategic advantage such as a coveted resource. I've never started a war this early on, so this will be a new one for me. I will let you know how it goes.

 

[mycophobia]

Quechuas and Immortals are indeed both available in Vanilla. Tanks can receive Drill promotions but I don't think they cause Collateral. Maybe that got patched out at some point

 

[a pen-dragon]

I don't plan on capturing any of them unless I can see a strategic advantage such as a coveted resource.

What else do you plan to do? raze the cities you take? Any war has two objectives: taking cities away from your opponent and gaining cities yourself.

Holding on to the cities you take is the right move most of the time. To raze a city, even a badly placed one, you need a good reason, as a city you capture will have buildings and population and quickly contribute to your economy. Yes, they will cost a lot short-term due to colony expenses, but in total they should roughly break even. Once you reach communism for SP (I think the main effects are unchanged, especially no distance maintenance?) distance maintenance is 0, as well as colony maintenance, which is limited by 2*distance maintenance.

 

[Calvin Beck]

I feel like I've been playing this game all wrong. Usually I just bulldoze the other civ's cities until I run out of time or achieve a conquest victory.

 

[mycophobia]

What else do you plan to do? raze the cities you take? Any war has two objectives: taking cities away from your opponent and gaining cities yourself.

Holding on to the cities you take is the right move most of the time. To raze a city, even a badly placed one, you need a good reason, as a city you capture will have buildings and population and quickly contribute to your economy. Yes, they will cost a lot short-term due to colony expenses, but in total they should roughly break even. Once you reach communism for SP (I think the main effects are unchanged, especially no distance maintenance?) distance maintenance is 0, as well as colony maintenance, which is limited by 2*distance maintenance.

fyi colony maintenance isn't a thing before BtS, it's just distance and number of cities. SP still plenty desirable nonetheless for wiping out distance maintenance and +1 food workshops. all the more reason though to hang onto good cities when you capture them

 

[Calvin Beck]

I always go for state property as soon as I can. It's much better than Palace\Forbidden Palace\Versailles. I'm currently researching at 90% with a small surplus late in the game. I had a Taj Majal golden age where my gold went negative, first time I'd seen that. Early in the game you take a -1 food hit for building a workshop, so I only build them in cities that lack hammers but have a couple of farms. Later in the game, not sure when it occurs or what triggers it, the -1 food hit goes away and I think you can get as many as 3 hammers for a workshop. I think they're good for those marginal areas of the map like forests with every tile having 1 hammer and 1 food and no hills available for mining.

 

[mycophobia]

That's State Property removing the food penalty, as if it weren't powerful enough already
Guilds adds a hammer to workshops, and then chemistry adds another one. So with all of those boosts you can just drop 3 hammers onto any unimproved flatland no questions asked, which is quite nice

 

[Calvin Beck]

Appreciate the explanation.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Caste System adds another to workshops, at least it does in BtS.

 

[mycophobia]

That's another BtS-exclusive thing, Caste before that is just unlimited specialists. Which never made sense to me, Serfdom is the one that needed a buff, lol.

 

[War Master in Training]

I remember playing pre-expansion Civ a lot and really enjoying the late-game conquest. It was quite rewarding to try some of the earlier rushes though once I got better at the game.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Here is a list of differences in version. Warlords and even vanilla get some interesting differences. But ultimately I'm too dependent on BUG mod UI to ever go back.

Thread 'Game Play Differences Between Expansion Packs'

Jul 28, 2011

The following is a list of the main differences a BtS player would see when playing a Warlords or vanilla GOTM. The aim was to produce checklist that could be read in a few minutes, covering the most significant and the most often forgotten differences between the games.

Warlords:

• Anarchy can occur during Golden Age, first Golden Age uses two Great Persons (not one), no +100% GPP
• Space win occurs at launch, capturing or razing capital does not destroy completed components, all components must be built, different tech requirements for components (see below for further change in...

• psparky
• Replies: 12
• Forum: Civ4 - Game of the Month

 

[mycophobia]

I can get most of what I would want from BUG in the form of various light interface mods for Vanilla; I mostly miss the additional civs/leaders and UBs. One day I'll look into seeing if I can backport them, though I'd have to do some trait reconfiguration

 

[Calvin Beck]

This is a little over my head. I'm quite the amateur at this game, despite having played vanilla off and on for a long time. I appreciate the advice that I've been receiving. Most of my questions are simple. I'm wondering if there is any benefit to building aqueducts and hospitals (except for Red Cross) if the city isn't "sick." Does it help them grow or does that just depend on bread (with granary)? Also, what's the best way to get a military unit to +5 XP so that I can build West Point? Do I just keep attacking with the same unit while taking turns to heal in between?

 

[mycophobia]

All aqueducts do is provide +2 health, and ultimately are a pretty bad investment of hammers in any case. Better to hook up health-giving resources or trade for them. A bit later on you can get Harbors for coastal cities and then Grocers, which provide additional health as well as economic benefits. I pretty much only build aqueducts after knocking out factory+coal plants because by then it's only one turn anyway. Hospitals similarly seem not particularly great. Unhealthiness usually isn't a huge deal for most of the game like unhappiness is, it just means you're wasting some food most of the time.

The game is generally pretty good about telling you what buildings and stuff do, so it's good to assess whether something will actually benefit you or not before you make the hammer investment. Aside from a granary all buildings are situational; what is my city doing for my civ, what does my city need right now, will this building do anything to help attain these objectives: these are the questions to ask when considering what to build.