Civ 4 Tournament Idea

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    :lol: It's always great to see the AI build the forbidden palace 5 tiles away from the palace. Pacal is looking good for a culture victory if nobody declares on him.
     
  2. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Yes, Montezuma would continually send streams of stacks to his opponents. I could see it on the minimap easily. :) I'm sure that Montezuma would be doing MUCH better in this game had he bordered Lincoln from the start.

    Thanks! :) I'll do my best to keep updating.

    Thanks, and I will try to continue updating. :)

    I move my starting settler to the top of the world (or bottom) and put mountains around me. Then, I enter Worldbuilder and give myself an immense amount of spies so that I infiltrate from day 1.

    I think this map (game 2) is standard, medium sea level. I modified practically every start, trying to make them more even.

    Pacal II got the Sistine Chapel.

    Sadly, it wasn't Pericles. Pericles would get involved in several wars. In hindsight, it was really lucky for Pericles that Peter founded Buddhism rather than Wang Kon, since Montezuma and Peter are leaving Pericles alone.

    Pacal II

    1. Founded 4 religions.
    2. Grabbed many early wonders.
    3. Was first to music.
    4. Built the Sistine Chapel.
    5. Won Liberalism and Economics.
    6. And ... amazingly ... of all the civs in this game ... he is the only one who has not been in a single war thus far. [This is by the 1500s or so - where the AP was causing about 4 or 5 people to enter wars.]
     
  3. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    OK so I just played out one of these games on a Fractal map which turned out to be everyone on 1 big continent (with a small inland sea in the north) and a couple of islands. In NO WAY did I attempt to make this map balanced, just to put that out there.

    The competitors, in the order of worst to best starts were:
    Two leaders who never stood a chance
    Churchill (had little chance as he was practically boxed in to a corner by turn 10 by Louis)

    Hammurabi (stuck right smack dab in the middle of the top 3 AIs in this game)

    3 leaders with average starts
    Shaka (restricted expansion due to his two neighbours but started next to peaceful Pacal)

    Louis (had Churchill boxed in early and some room for expansion

    Willem Van Orange (A strong leader with a small amount of room who got some good breaks in my game)

    and 3 leaders with above average starts
    Charlemagne
    Peter
    Pacal
    (all of these leaders had good land at their disposal and more than enough room to expand)

    Ok so some observations from my game:
    1. The success of any AI depends a great deal on the relative stupidity of the AIs around them. In my game Peter had a fantastic starting location and plenty of room to expand. However, before his land was even filled in (he could have built 6+ more cities) he decided to send a bunch of swords and axes at Hammys bowmen (when he wasn't even annoyed at Hammy, and their borders didnt even touch yet!)... ugh!

    This meant that his neighbours Pacal and Willem had extra room to expand and they became much bigger threats than they should have been.

    Peter went from being a real contender at the start, to a vassal by the middle ages. Ironically though he broke free and made some actual good moves to be the second closest to winning the game.

    2: The AI's that tech best early game tend to be those who have the most limited expansion and the least war (these two aren't surprising) however, they tend to get run over later on by the bigger powers. Pacal and Churchill both owned most of the early wonders and won things like lib and the music race. However, it didn't take long for them to end up vassals of larger civs and in the end they became irrelevant.

    3: The AI sucks at offensive wars, their stack composition is usually average and the only way for them to make gains is either from quick surprise attacks, vassalizing someone quickly or sheer numbers.


    4: Vassal mechanics make a huge difference in the game. The AI loves vassalizing others and being a vassal. Often they jump around fluctuating between being masters and vassals, this makes a huge difference in who is dragged into which war and which team of master and vassals becomes dominant.

    5: The most dominant AI's tend to be the ones who play most like the human, they balance war and expansion well and use religious ties to their advantage (in my game that was charlie who got an incredible amount of cities early on and continued warring and vassaling most of the continent) However this leads me to...

    6: No matter how dominant an AI is it still will get in its own way when it comes to victory. My game was won (eventually) by a rampant Charlemagne via space victory. Up until 1500AD he had played it perfectly, he had expanded aggresively, teched and warred well and had 3 sizeable vassals.

    He was close to domination (had 40% land and pop) but he was too friendly with the other free AIs and thus couldnt DOW them (he eventually did... the turn before his ship landed!).
    He could have won via diplo vote, yet he researched Mass media before he had his chance with the AP and then never brought up the right vote in th UN!
    Finally he won via space. However, as he just couldn't decide which way to go and almost lost to 2 culture attempts and one space attempt.

    This has led me to the conclusion that whilst some AIs may lend themselves to being superpowers, those AIs who are more focused on VCs have just as good a chance at actually winning the game (Pacal was a vassal for a long time yet he almost won culture and Peter had a small empire but did a great job nearly getting his ship completed).

    Anyway, this was a really fun thing to do and I look forward to seeing the results of your games DMOC:goodjob:!
     
  4. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Very interesting observations Bobbyboy. This thread reminds me of the world cup final or something where in the time-outs the TV coverage cuts away to some random Homer J Expert character for his thoughts on the game, the government, the precarious marriages of the players etc. etc.

    Well just what we all suspected, the AIs are really there to stop us winning rather than win themselves :lol:

    Keep it up people. And go Monty! (Monty is clearly something of a fans' favourite - maybe he could get a wildcard to the final?)
     
  5. Sidney Magal

    Sidney Magal Latin Lover

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    Oh no! The ALC curse is also imperialistic!
     
  6. eireksten

    eireksten Protective/Organized

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    Any news on this?
     
  7. Everyday

    Everyday Chieftain

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    In the absence of any continuation of game 2 ive started game 3 which i can post a pre-game for if that is desirable
     
  8. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    By all means go ahead, this is a great thread and it seems DMOC is busy atm. I'm sure he won't mind someone else having a go.
     
  9. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Yes, I wouldn't mind. I am busy playing some multiplayer civ in my spare time, which explains the lack of activity.
     
  10. Everyday

    Everyday Chieftain

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    ROUND 1 GAME 3: PREVIEW

    Cast in order of appearance:
    Qin Shi Huang
    Washington
    Shaka
    Ragnar
    Huayna Capac
    Louis XIV
    Willem van Orange
    Asoka

    The map is Standard Pangaea to make winning easier with pressed shoreline in an attempt to help Willem's UU.

    I had to move Huayna south to stop him blocking Willem, I hope his new capital is acceptable and I also moved Shaka slightly south to let Asoka out into the world and tampered with Shaka's immense amount of floodplains which I deemed unfair. The rest of the capitals I left I think so feel free to tell me whats wrong with the balance.

    Asoka:
    Spoiler :


    Shaka:
    Spoiler :


    Ragnar:
    Spoiler :


    Washington:
    Spoiler :


    Qin:
    Spoiler :


    WvO:
    Spoiler :


    HC:
    Spoiler :


    Lou:
    Spoiler :


    Whole map:
    Spoiler :


    So, Shaka, Ragnar and the WonderWhores. I pick WvO and HC for this game I would expect HC to get a religion and share it with WvO and then tech their way to space or HC might get angry and go after something. If Shaka can get a foothold he will almost probably still fail. I've never seen Ragnar amount to much or Lou or Asoka, Washington I'm unsure of and Qin is my 3rd choice. What do you all think then? (Remember to tell me what to fix with the map otherwise first round tomorrow)
     
  11. Moroktonos

    Moroktonos Philosopher

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    Glad you're continuing this... it's a lot of fun to read, and I can't really afford to spend that much time playing myself right now :(, and it gives me a good civ fix.

    As for predictions, well, Asoka and Washington are both fish out of water with this crowd! It's a pity too, because I think in the end that they are two of the cleverer high peaceweight ais. Even with Asoka's low build count, I've seen him simultaneously take on and vassalize Toku and Stalin despite only being slightly more advanced! Combine his often suprising war skills with his cultural and teching power, and he certainly can become a beast... but I don't think so this time. Shaka's going to kill him. Relatively quickly too.

    A lot of this is going to depend on the religion distribution. Asoka and the vile Capac are the likely founders. I've also seen Louis and Willem go for religions often, so I could see either a hindu/buddhist world (if Asoka and the vile Capac also snag Judiasm/Confu), or a more interesting one with three or four widespread ones.

    Willem, Qin, and the vile Capac often forget to expand, Shaka will be busy killing Asoka, Ragnar will probably prepare for an early war v. Washington. This will allow Louis and Washington (rexers in my experience) to get quite large. Ragnar will declare on Washington, but Washington will fend it off, at best giving up one unimportant city.

    Depending on how well his religion spreads, we can expect to see either the vile backstabbing Capac, or the vile tech/culture whore Capac. I'm guessing Willem will manage to found a religion, but other than that, Huayna's religion will probably spread to Ragnar, Qin, and Washington, and maybe to Louis, however, early on we can expect to see a huge HR lovefest, so he'll probably go into culture/tech mode.

    Louis has a great start. If he ends up running Shaka's (read, Asoka's) religion, this will probably save him from the inevitable backstab for long enough to seriously out tech him. Washington will probably be the next one to face the wrath of Shaka. Washington will probably be doing well, but Shaka will likely bring the entire world along into his war; Washington will only manage to get along with this crowd for so long. He'll end up someone's vassal, though whose is up in the air, my money is on Louis.

    A lot will depend on who does the best job tech whoring, and who gets the culturally powerful wonders. Huayna and Willem will likely lack the land to successfully build a spaceship, and will probably try to go culture. If Willem does, Shaka will reach across the map and successfully put a stop to it, despite using cavs/trebuchets against tanks. Huayna and Shaka have identical peaceweights and 2 warmonger respect; they could conceivably start with a hidden +6 towards one another! Combine this with borders, resources, and their inevitable shared war with Washington, and they'll probably be at Friendly even if running different religions (Shaka doesn't care, and Huayna's intense heathen hatred will be offset by HR points).

    Only Washington starts with marble, but he only has a 20 (compared to Louis' 50) in wonderspamming. If Louis gets his wonders, he'll probably go culture, if not, he'll probably go space. Either way he'll probably manage to fend off Shaka.

    Part of me would like to see the blatant underdogs Asoka or Washington somehow pull off something crazy, but I doubt it. Another part of me would like to see Shaka vassalize everyone :devil:, but I doubt that too. Qin (try and fail at a bunch of wonders, forget to expand, tech respectably, but ultimately be a non-factor) and Ragnar (sacrifice expansion for unsuccessful early attack on Washington, also tech respectably, periodically attack people, never get anywhere, eventually will backstab someone bigger than he is and end up vassalized) will do terribly. Huayna (culture) or Louis (space or culture).
     
  12. Tempesta13

    Tempesta13 Prince

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    Game 4
    Civs are Charley, Cyrus, DeGaulle, Bismarck, Roosevelt, Isabella, Genghis. My guess for a winner was either Charley or Isabella by diplomation, or DeGaulle with culture if he gets Sistine.

    Actual results:
    Spoiler :
    Charley dominated the game but Isabella got a culture victory. Pretty sure Charley could have won the UN vote anytime but he never got around to calling it.

    Report:
    Spoiler :

    Genghis let Izzy take this nice city spot 4 tiles from his capital when it was about 10 from hers. He also didn't have horses. He does a very early DOW on Izzy (right choice) with mostly spearmen (wrong choice).

    Here's the stack right before he fails miserably. They make peace soon later with no city captures.

    Genghis attacks again later and fails even worse this time as he loses a city.

    ...and another one - i really should have given him horses. (he's still building spearmen)

    Started thinking DeGaulle would have a shot a culture when he builds Sistine.

    Everyone attacks Genghis - as if he had any chance before - ends up capitulating to Izzy.

    Izzy wins lib, DeGaulle builds Taj.

    DeGaulle's chances of victory get smaller when he gets a mass DOW on him.

    DeGaulle capitulates to Charley (Cyrus peacefully did as well). Izzy is going for culture now with research shut off.

    Charley declares on Izzy and takes a couple decent cities but not one of the three culture cities.

    Now everyone but Bismarck is a vassal of Charley. Bismarck was the sleeper in this one as he had a decent tech lead and was on pace to be first to space. If not for Izzy's culture shot he had a chance to win since he was the sole fielder of mech infantry at the end of the game.

    Charley didn't want to call for a UN victory dispute getting 3 or 4 chances to do so. Hands the victory to Izzy.

    As you can see Charley dominated land/pop - Bismarck was leading in tech but Izzy managed to hold on to her three culture cities for the win.

     
  13. Everyday

    Everyday Chieftain

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    Round 1 Game 3

    First event on turn 9 3640BC Buddhism is founded in Bombay
    Spoiler :


    Finally on Turn 11 Shaka manages to found uMungundlovu after trying to found it where Louis founded Orleans, good news again for the Indians (and previously I think they popped Bronze Working from the nearby hut on turn 2)
    Spoiler :


    In 3400BC Hinduism is founded in Tiwanaku and around 20 turns later grabs Stonehenge with almost everyone else going for it too
    Spoiler :


    Turn 49 2040BC Asoka also founds Judaism in Pataliputra and Shaka converts to Buddhism, so far this has gone as well as it could have for the Indians

    1640BC Washington converts to Judaism to cause himself more diplomatic pain

    1520BC Louis grabs the Oracle uncontested and takes Currency

    Sometime around now Washington receives -1 diplomacy with Shaka and Qin in separate events

    1200BC Lousi founds Confuscianism in Tours
    Spoiler :
    I appreciate its kinda hard to see in this shot but its there I swear


    1000BC Ragnar converts to Hinduism and Qin converts to Buddhism. Here's a coupla views of the world just before the mids are built in Cuzco
    Spoiler :


    By 875BC everyone has adopted a religion Buddhism-Asoka, Qin, Shaka; Hinduism-HC, WvO, Ragnar; Confuscian-Lou; Jewish-Washington. Later Asoka built the SP and adopted FR then Ragnar adopts Buddhism.

    650BC HC founds Christianity also in Tiwanaku and more importantly the first war commences with Shaka predictably declaring war on Washington
    Spoiler :

    Shaka's stack:
    Spoiler :

    and the result:
    Spoiler :

    Philadelphia swaps hands a few times but Shaka keeps it at least for now.

    Many turns of wonderbuilding ensue.

    300BC WvO wins the Music race and the Mahabodhi is built with Buddhism as the most popular religion

    275BC Ragnar DoWs on Wahsington and the AP is Hindu and Incan

    200BC Shaka and Washington make peace and Louis DoWs on Ragnar

    100BC Toaism is founded in Haarlem
    Spoiler :


    25BC Washington and Ragnar make peace after almost no action

    1AD Some views of the world
    Spoiler :


    A promising sight from one of the leaders this game:
    Spoiler :
    and he's in WHEOOHRN woo


    Shaka is the power leader still however and his main stack is bordering Washington. WvO has a lot of land but much of it is tundra. Qin and HC did forget to expand as predicted, a lot of Inca is culturally bought. Louis with his great start is the tech leader and Ragnar seems to be the only one with room for another city but so far he has failed in pretty much everything.

    Wonders this round:
    Louis grabbed 7: Great Wall, Great Lighthouse, Oracle, Mausoleum M, University of Sankore, Colossus, Chichen Itza
    Huayna grabbed 5: Stonehenge, ToA, Kashi Vishwanath, Pyramids, Church of the Nativity
    Asoka grabbed 4: Shwedagon Paya, Mahabodhi, Parthenon, Great Library
    Qin managed 1 from about 10 attempts: Statue of Zeus

    HC culture victory looks very on and WvO is currently the only civ building Sistine Chapel so a culture for him looks good too.

    Saves will be up if wanted when I find out how
     
  14. Everyday

    Everyday Chieftain

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    Regarding game 4 clearly Charlie and Iz should make it through to the next round, as for wildcard would you say any of Bismark's play warranted a pass? Possibly that he was leading tech?
     
  15. Moroktonos

    Moroktonos Philosopher

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    Is anyone else interested in trying this? I would be willing to organize it (in another thread) if enough other people would be up for it. :)

    There would probably have to be some reasonable restrictions on the ais though (i.e., minimum NoWarProbs at pleased and friendly 70 and 90, no less than 2 same faith diplo bonus etc.; just examples, we would obviously discuss these) I imagine everyone could submit a civilization (pick any UU/UB/starting tech combo) to which your leader is attached. Then I could create a mod with all the civs in it and play out games between them in this fashion.

    If two or three people respond to this message, I'll start the thread... ;)
     
  16. Ray Patterson

    Ray Patterson the dude is not in

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    This probably counts as a zombie post, but I went ahead and played game 5...

    Game 5

    Catherine
    Augustus Caesar
    Alexander
    Mansa Musa
    Frederick
    Gandhi
    Darius I

    Augustus was locked in by Alexander. He manages to get Frederick into war with Alex though, however Augustus fails to conquer any cities while Fred conquers 2 and vassalizes Alex. Not much war after, only one short one between Gandhi and Mansa Musa... yes, this game saw a "Mansa Musa declares war on Gandhi" :crazyeye:

    In the end Gandhi wins by cultural victory, while Catherine has the score lead and is furthest with spaceship.

    So, Gandhi and Catherine advance. Wildcard to Mansa Musa... despite scoring officially lower than Frederick, discounting Fred's vassals he did a lot better.

    edit: and game 6 hehe...
    Game 6

    Napoleon
    Hatshepsut
    Gilgamesh
    Kublai Khan
    Suryavarman II
    Brennus
    Mehmed II

    Super intense game. Very early AD the entire world is at war, which happens more often. For some time it seems Gilgamesh may actually win by domination, as he's making vassals left and right. But they keep breaking free, as in wars of conquest he is so damn careful his vassals keep up conquering instead. Still, his huge sprawl lends him a tech lead of sorts. Kublai Khan ultimately picks up the pieces of Napoleon's and Mehmed's failed conquests. Hatshepsut, rather predictably, is the only killed off civ of the game. Sury does pretty good overall but fails to go for a victory. Gilgamesh ultimately wins by cultural victory, having built Eiffel Tower and then gone on full culture. Interestingly he could have easily won by diplomation easily as well, had the RNG favored that proposal.

    So, Gilgamesh and Kublai Khan advance, wildcard to Survayarman.

    edit2: also did game 7.

    Saladin
    Boudica
    Mao Zedong
    Hannibal
    Victoria
    Joao II
    Zara Yaqob

    Very surprising result: Saladin wins by space victory. And it's not a fluke: he was clear tech leader, and dominating the continent kind of. In fact, shortly after his space ship launch he started a brutal war against the other block, Joao/Hannibal, in which many nukes were thrown and in which again Sala was winning, due to technical superiority mainly. Joao was a clear second, but Zara did surprisingly poorly. So, Saladin and Joao advance, Zara gets wildcard not for results but simply for being Zara.

    So, winners of round 1:
    Justinian I
    Lincoln
    Willem
    Isabella
    Gandhi
    Gilgamesh
    Saladin

    Runners up:
    Julius Caesar
    Pacal II
    Louis XIV
    Charlemagne
    Catherine
    Kublai Khan
    Joao II

    Wildcard:
    Sitting Bull
    Peter
    Asoka
    Bismarck
    Mansa Musa
    Survayarman
    Zara Jacob

    I want to end with a grand finale huge pangaea, so 11 civs (12 including me though, I'll get out of the way heh). All winners should be there, then 3 of the runners up and only one of the wildcardlings. So, those are 3 more matches.

    Wildcard match won by Asoka (cultural). Peter's spaceship was almost done, I'm letting him compete in the runner up round.
    Runners up won by Julius Caesar (domination). He vassalized everyone except Joao... and he ofc would have vazallized him too if he had gotten around to it. Louis XIV was the last one vassalized, also the first one to appollo project and long time score leader, until Jules' empire really got going. so JC, Louis and Joao advance to the grand finale:

    Justinian I
    Lincoln
    Willem
    Isabella
    Gandhi
    Gilgamesh
    Saladin
    Julius Caesar
    Louis XIV
    Joao
    Asoka

    Gilgamesh goes for early empire building, vassalizing Lincoln and Asoka. Justinian vassalizes Gandhi a bit later also. Much later, Gilgamesh attacks Justinian. Through sheer numbers he manages to take 2 cities, but is far behind tech-wise, and Justinian manages to take back his cities and one more and sues for peace. Gilg takes on another bad choice of target: Saladin. Ultimately the whole world takes on Gilgamesh and his minions, and Justinian manages to take over his empire: not only Gilgamesh himself is vassalized to Justinian, but also all his former vassals. Saladin has taken advantage of the situation and is the clear number 2, being ahead in tech somewhat and with 2 peace vassals, Willem and Louis. The 2 blocks clash, Justinian rolls over Louis, and completes his spaceship. However, Gandhi inches out a cultural victory.
     
  17. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    can i get a quick cliff notes of this? seems interesting but tl;dr
     
  18. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Man, Hammurabi is such a failure of an AI. :/
     
  19. cain3456

    cain3456 King

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    I set them up in groups of 11, so that each trait is represented twice. I also have to balance it so that no nation is represented twice, and the three "unobtainian" combinations are scattered.
     
  20. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Yeah, I've gotta see if I can find my old save. :) We'll see if I can continue, but in the meantime, I'm enjoying all of the contributions, and it looks like Ray Patterson has finished this anyway.
     

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