Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ornen, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,717
    So there should be a list for each victory type.

    Sadly the game allows any victory type to be gained through violence (I believe taking cities will loose a lot of the valuables through looting/payment) and so the strong military early starters do rule the roost... unless Germany starts on the other side of the map and has time to get uber factoring

    War counter for Gilgacart is tortoise archers
     
  2. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Messages:
    648
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Incheon, R.O.K.
    Fair enough, I have't played her so I don't know how much of a difference the extra culture makes. It sounds like it's more than I gave it credit for. The thing is her bonuses don't make it easier to kill the enemy units in the first place.

    I'll also admit that Teddy's continetal bonus is somewhat situational, although it has been hugely relevant in a half dozen starts or so. Even when it doesn't cover the whole land mass it has always been good for at least one neighbor in addition to barbs, and it's usually more than that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
  3. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,920
    Archers are strong defenders, but they aren't a cavalry counter like a Spearman is. The War Cart is immune to anti-cavalry strength bonuses, thus it rages on unchecked. Archers have ranged strength of 25, but only 15 melee strength (The War Cart delivers 1.8x damage and takes 0.55x damage versus an Archer without defensive bonuses). A War Cart can hit an Archer on the field from outside its range limit of 2.

    Inside a city, Archers will give the city a significant strength boost, but few AI will have researched Archery early enough and an Archer won't save a city from an attack of 2-3 War Carts.
     
  4. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    268
    Sun Tsu's last response shows why Teddys bonus is so good at the beginning. Archers become 30 range 20 melee. Warriors become as strong as war carts. This modificaton will affect how Teddy interacts with all other civs. Every game that I have played Teddy, the initial fight on my continent I am shredding most AI because of the strength bonus. That bonus should not be underestimated. Likewise, last time i played him i was getting something like 43% bonus great people points before switching governments and stil dominating my continent. I think some of his late game bonuses are still questionable, but the continent bonus and legacy bonus are superb.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    26,046
    ^ continent bonus must be somewhat downgraded by its unreliability in utility. It might get you 2 kills, or it might provide you no offensive benefit whatsoever.

    War carts always massacre people near you. Randomized plate tectonics don't hamper their strength one bit, and they're fast too.

    America's continent bonus is nice but in practice it doesn't have much else.
     
  6. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    268
    In practice, it has beeN a huge benefit virtually every time. I don't see how you can say something has low utility when it consistently delivers. There are very few instances where you won't be having battles on your own continent in Deity play. Is it as good as war carts? Of course not. But it's still good enough combined with legacy bonus to put America closer to the top end of civs rather than the bottom.
     
  7. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Messages:
    5,686
    On normal speed Roosevelt needs 210 turns in Classical Republic before you'd have 43% bonus to great people points, including the +15% from running the government. My games don't last that long. This is the main problem with his legacy bonus ability. The faster you win, the less it earns you. Hopefully they will somehow balance the game so that the games last longer, then legacy bonus might become more relevant.
     
  8. jaegybomb

    jaegybomb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    79
    Gender:
    Male
    So you get classic republic at turn 75 and after turn 150 when the game is pretty much decided you are getting 5% bonus great people points? How is that is a decent bonus? The +5 as long as they stay in their little area is the only decent bonus they get and it isn't as good as what other civs get.
     
  9. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    268
    Well last time I did it I switched straight from Classic republic to communism and won the game within the next 20 turns. With the bonus people points I was guaranteed any great person I wanted, often back to back. I think those plus America's other bonuses are good enuf for second tier.
     
  10. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    268
    Also, if you take the position that the game is already over by turn 150, then the +5 bonus is even more powerful because you will get a ton of use out of it (indeed most if not all of your use) during those first 150 turns.
     
  11. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,920
    Teddy Roosevelt is a strong Leader/Civ with his +5 Strength bonus on his home continent. I believe the bonus never expires while the War Cart is limited to the Ancient and Classical Eras which is still very strong.

    Teddy's Warriors on his continent get Strength boosted from 20 -> 25. So War Carts at Strength 30 will still prevail against them, delivering 1.22x damage and taking 0.82x damage.

    Comparing Teddy's Archers in the field to War Carts is more complicated. Teddy's Archers will win in all hills terrain where the War Cart can only move one tile and the Archer gets +3 strength for being on a hill.

    Teddy's Archers on flat terrain requires further analysis. The War Cart's 3-4 move means that it can always hit the Archer first. The War Cart gets 4 moves when starting on flat terrain, so the Archer can not get the first hit on a War Cart by moving 1 tile towards it and firing, because the Archer will be one tile short (1 move + 2 range = 3 tiles).

    So, the War Cart (Str 30) will get the first hit on the Archer (Str 20), delivering 1.5x damage and receiving 0.67x damage.

    Next, the Archer counter attacks (Str 30) and delivers 1x damage and receives 0x damage (ranged weapon).

    So, in each turn the War Cart does 1.5x damage and receives 0.67x + 1x = 1.67x on offense and defense.

    Teddy's Archer defeats the War Cart on flat terrain as well, assuming my analysis is correct.

    Thus, if you are playing Gilgamesh in an early War Cart rush, hit Teddy before he can complete Archery or avoid him entirely.

    I thought the War Cart would prevail in flat terrain in a head to head contest with Teddy's Archer, but the Archer's ranged weapon and Teddy's +5 strength are enough to prevail over the War Cart.
     
  12. jaegybomb

    jaegybomb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    79
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes it's a very good bonus. The conditional +5 is like 20% of the reason Scythia is good. If only America had the other 80% too.
     
  13. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    268
    Well, if you consider the fact that American units will automatically kill equivalent unit of any other civ, I really think it is silly to pretend that is anything other than a massive advantage at the start of the game.
     
  14. jaegybomb

    jaegybomb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    79
    Gender:
    Male
    So like the same advantage as Varus?
     
  15. CaiusDrewart

    CaiusDrewart King

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I agree that Sumeria is a better conquest Civ than America, but I think America is going to have a same-continent neighbor the majority of the time. Based on my observations on Pangaea and Continents maps I'd say you'll have one at least 80% of games, and that's a conservative estimate. You'll have two a pretty significant amount of the time, too. (Someone with too much time on their hands should generate a bunch of maps and see what the exact odds are.)

    The legacy bonus sucks. It doesn't do anything until the mid-to-late game and even then it's pretty small. I think it's negligible.

    Nevertheless, the combat bonus makes America the fourth best early conquest Civ (behind Scythia, Sumeria, and probably the Aztecs). Since early conquest is far and away the best way to win Civ VI games, that's a big deal. Combine that with a surprisingly decent UB and they're a Tier 2 Civ for me.
     
    Sun Tzu Wu likes this.
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,920
    America's same continent strength bonus of +5 does remains just as powerful in the late game (on its own continent of course) as in the early game. In other words its not the size of the strength of units, but the difference in the strengths of units in combat with each other that determines damage delivered and recieved. So that +5 strength bonus generates the same amount of additional damage versus enemies and reduces the damage taken the same amount regardless of the unit's absolute strengths.

    If America's home continent is big enough, the +5 strength bonus lasts the whole game and it just as powerful early game as late game. That is consequence of how the damage formula works.
     
  17. jaegybomb

    jaegybomb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    79
    Gender:
    Male
    I really don't think you guys understand early game strength. You could give America a 20 turn advantage on Rome and Rome would still wipe them out before turn 100.
     
  18. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Messages:
    268
    Uhh, nope. America would rip through Rome long before Legions became relevant. And even after legions become relevant, American swordsmen are just as powerful as Legions due to the +5 bonus. I've played many deity games with both civs. America is better, purely due to it being able to rush domination faster.
     
  19. CaiusDrewart

    CaiusDrewart King

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages:
    834
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    If America and Rome are fighting on America's continent (and they definitely are if Rome is doing the invading), they both have 40-strength swordsmen. That's what's so amazing about Teddy's LUA; it basically makes every American unit a unique unit in the early game. It's the next best thing to Scythia.

    Rome does have somewhat stronger economic bonuses than America and also can get to Oligarchy faster (for the +4 strength to melee units). So I'd say they're about the same tier.
     
  20. CoccoBill

    CoccoBill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    I think Teddy's +5 is on par with War Carts, all things considered. Carts are amazing the first 50 turns, but become irrelevant shortly after that. The same applies to Varus, which are only relevant for a while and just that one unit, not any unit you have. The +5 is relevant throughout the game, especially defensively. It all but guarantees you never lose a city on your home continent, and it makes conquering everything on it a breeze. If Teddy had other worthwhile bonii I'd rank him top tier, as is there's an argument to be made to put him in B tier.
     

Share This Page