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Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ornen, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    These sort of lists (including mine) only reflects the lister's opinion and his level. Nobody shall try to argue on these meaningless issues. People keeping their own ideas often have a million reasons.
     
  2. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    Nubia is definitely A tier. They are basically Sumeria with a ranged attack on the war carts and faster districts. Their increased production to both districts and ranged units at the beginning of the game makes every game a fast start for them too. Their unique improvement is good. It's basically just a way to make desert tiles useful, and since Nubia has a high desert bias for their start, you are always going to have some desert tiles nearby your start location. They also get bonus production or gold on mines which starts to add up quickly and provides a valuable economic boost toward the end of the initial expansion phase. All in all, every one of their bonuses is exceptionally good except the unique improvement, which is still good because you are guaranteed to have desert tiles with Nubia and depending on how you place the pyramids, you can get (a) extra bonus production to districts, and (b) three to four yields out of desert tiles (including flood plains). Also, due to their increased district production and powerful military boost, it is very easy to get a boost to Mathematics and thus Petra is nearly always within reach. I have been able to build the Petra on every deity game I have played with Nubia thus far.

    I haven't gone into detail about their unique archer here, but it is really the best unit in the game. It easily defeats walls, swordsmen, and AI archers. A couple of them can also take down horsemen. In other words, if you pump out a bunch of the Nubian archer (as you should every game), you will be pretty much unchallenged in military until knights. Also, their three movement speed makes them almost unkillable while allowing them to easily chase down barbarian scouts, and with their bonus XP, they progress quickly through promotions.
     
  3. Ornen

    Ornen Chieftain

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    Because they're not as good as the other B tier civs :mischief::mischief:

    Two key reasons though:

    #1 is that the balance patches as a whole have made them much less appealing. Back when IZ bonuses stacked across cities, the IZ was a must-build in every city making the Hansa an amazing UD, and by far Germany's biggest bonus. Now that you only build 2-4 IZs, it's much less appealing. None of their other bonuses are compelling enough to put them over the other civs in the B tier. When they changed up the unique district rules, I thought Germany's free district might be a compelling bonus, but it's turned out to be a pretty minor one.

    #2 is that more civs have been added, and the new civs have been stronger than average, raising our standards. Germany stands out much less in a game that has Persia/Macedon/Ethiopia/Australia than in a game that doesn't. Which comes back to: Germany is not quite as good as the other B tier civs, in my book. They're still solid, but they really don't feel like an outstanding civ to me anymore with their existing bonuses.

    This is a discussion thread @Lily_Lancer, which is why we're talking about it. I hope to make it based on consensus as much as possible, much like adwcta's thread from BNW (linked in OP). You'll note that I haven't even added Australia at C tier yet. I've proposed it, and now we're talking about it. If you'd like to make a case for Australia, be my guest, but "Oh these lists are meaningless it's all just someone's opinion" isn't helpful, and contradicts my purpose of the thread.

    Australia's an edge case for me. They have strong bonuses, but they're all situational –– on my last Australia game, for instance, I didn't get DOW'd at all in the first 150 turns, and there were no obvious CS's to liberate within reach... If you get an early DOW, which happens often enough, they get a solid boost, around 100-160 production depending on where your cities are. Let's compare that to Nubia, though: Nubia saves 20 production per archer, so if you build 6-8 archers you're saving 120-160 production anyway, not to mention the production you'll save on districts or the bonus production Nubia gets from mines. I would much rather take the reliable bonus to early game production than the one that might or might not happen.

    Yeah, they might be A tier as well... Seems like the devs are leaning to hefty bonuses to the DLC civs. Hopefully they buff some of the initial civs at some point.
     
  4. Esperr

    Esperr Chieftain

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    Nubia is Australia dumb. They have a better version of the best unit in the game, they get heavily rewarded for what your going to do anyway, just like AUS. Another bomb tier civ.
     
  5. Vahnstad

    Vahnstad Chieftain

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    my start on deity (first game), i now declared war with brazil and conquered 1 city and 1 settler already. 10 cities at turn 70/75.

    Definitely tier 1 :D
     
  6. mckinney156

    mckinney156 Chieftain

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    Throwing this out there but Rome has managed to stay on the list at A tier since this list was created while ole TR has been (mostly) trashed throughout. Had a game last night playing as Rome and got Legions and 4 archers on the move at T41. Even had a battering ram. Going at Teddy was like hitting a brick wall. I managed to get his cap and only one other city but he bricked me at the 3rd city by placing a pikeman in there and none of my archers survived.

    Effectively ruined what should have been a great snowball :(
     
  7. Obi_Ganj_Kenobi

    Obi_Ganj_Kenobi Chieftain

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    Rome should definitely remain in the A tier though imo. The combination of Legions, Classical great general and oligarchy makes them nearly unstoppable early game. While Teddy's combat bonus is nice, he doesn't have any other early bonuses though. Film studio is strong but late, and their two UU are garbage right now.

    Rome's infrastructure bonuses are also super strong. Of all the civs in the game Id say they have the most flexibility.

    My question is, where does Russia stand on the current list? They still seem to have the strongest religious advantage, and their UU is still one of (if not the) best in the game. Also fairly flexible with their early great musicians and artists, not to mention faith purchasing is one of the only powerful options for religious civs, and they generate more faith than anyone.
     
  8. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    I agree with Macedon in A - I'd probably have Persia in B tier, though they are close to A. C is way too low for Germany and Australia - I'd have them both in A tier. Germany is strong all game and that early military slot + CS combat gives them a pretty big advantage early on Deity and after Hansas they are dynamite. I could see Australia in B tier because they have less early advantages, but they are the strongest endgame civ IMO and keying up massive production bonuses on demand is pretty powerful. Kongo should go down to C - agree with that. B for England seems about right too.
     
  9. Ornen

    Ornen Chieftain

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    I think Teddy is a civ that's tough to go up against, but not particularly strong on his own. We've discussed him a bit, and the debate back then was whether he's C or D tier. The combat bonus is nice, but a bit chancy and limited, and none of his other bonuses are especially compelling. I'd love for the film studio bonus to extend beyond a single era, but unfortunately, that's not the civ we've got. I don't think he compares particularly well compared to the other civs in the game.

    Rome's one of the stronger base game civs, but I think it's fair to question their placement in the A tier. The A tier has gotten much more crowded as they've added civs, so it's fair to ask who deserves to be up there now that they've raised the standard. Rome's game is smooth and very flexible. Free monuments might be the strongest production bonus in the game -- at 60 prod per monument, you're looking at 480 free production if you found 8 cities. And that's frontloaded early in the game, for something you're going to build in your cities anyway.

    I would put Russia and Arabia together as the best religious civs in the game –– really the only viable religious civs at Deity. The tricky thing about Russia is you have to play a very different (and more risky) early game to land your religion. But once you do, you're in a very nice position for either a religious or cultural win. And all of their bonuses feel strong –– extra territory and tundra bonuses are both useful in my games. They're one of my favorite civs to play, but I currently list them at B tier, largely because they're not especially adept at the optimal early game strategy. They open up new and very interesting possibilities, and they do have some serious strengths though.

    What bonus do you get out of Hansas, and how does it compare to other bonuses in the game? I'm reading around +3 production per hansa, starting in the midgame.... which doesn't exactly blow me away. If the district costs 180 prod when you start building them, it will take 60 turns just to cover the cost of building it. Compare that to civs like Rome or Nubia that get their production bonuses for free. Even stacked against Australia's production bonus, which is more chancy, Germany's still looks weak.... I'm very, very not convinced the hansa puts Germany on the A tier. The early military slot is handy, but what are you doing with it? It's not a game changer in my games... Neither is the CS bonus. CS are easy to conquer anyway. The bonus might shave off a turn or two, but it's very unnecessary.

    How consistently do you line up the production bonuses with Australia?

    I've listed what I'm currently thinking below. The A tier still feels a bit more crowded than feels right to me. Is there anyone you all think is not quite on par with the others at that level? I don't have any standouts that I would move down, but Aztec, Scythia, and Macedon are maybe a bit more vulnerable than the others.

    Add Persia at A
    Add Macedon at A
    Add Nubia at A
    Add Australia at B
    England up from C to B
    Poland down from B to C
    Kongo down from B to C
    Germany down from B to C

    One last note: whenever possible, I'm a big fan of doing the math on bonuses. It's very helpful to compare civ's bonuses against each other, and that's often not hard to quantify. In the past couple pages I've put some numbers on Australia, Nubia, Germany, and Rome's production bonuses, which is a very useful way to compare the civs.
     
  10. kb27787

    kb27787 Chieftain

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    On deity, classic GG is not always easy to get... culture bonus (free monument) helps to slot strategos faster but I've seen deity AIs buy that entire GG with either gold or faith from 0 GG points. Keep in mind that legions with oligarchy might sound strong... but all in all they are 2 move units, and they die much more quickly than expected against focus fire and kiting. You can conquer maybe 1... or 2 if you really stretch it and have an extremely lucky game, neighbors on deity with legions, but after that your rush runs quickly out of steam. By the time your legions make it to a moderately-distanced opponent (esp. if lots of hills), they will already have knights and Xbows. Melee class units are among the suckiest units in the game (only class which sucks worse is anti-cavalry)... and the upgrade has to wait until niter and muskets.... and even then musketmen rush kinda sucks!
    Their bonus is kinda paradoxic. The free monument is GREAT for getting early empire and self-settling cities. But legion is meant to be an early-game unit (similar to eagle warriors.. but in general early game melee class UUs suck). I am always at a loss at whether I want to build a warrior/legion or a settler with them.
    I would put them close to where Russia is at.
    For Russia, they have a quick pantheon guaranteed without God-king if they have tundra (and in some cases that will be worth more than the monument), and they start off with more tiles BUT the extra tiles do not add to the culture cost of future tiles, making their empires VERY resilient to nasty surprises and barb spawns as the game goes on. Just thinking about how much culture/gold they "save" from those extra tiles and I think they should come up close to Rome's free monument.
     
  11. stinkubus

    stinkubus Chieftain

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    If you have decent sources of gold early (workable tiles, commercial CS) then you don't have to choose. You can complete craftsmanship no later than T18 if you settle in place with Rome, and you can then slot Agoge and Urban Planning and start to spam warriors. After Craftsmanship go straight for Early Empire. I typically build/buy a worker and use chop overflow to get out my first settler and with two cities you can get to Early Empire in the early 30s; sometimes faster if you get lucky with a nearby natural wonder that grants culture, culture resources, or cultural CS. Having enough food to grow quickly also helps because you'll have enough culture just from your monuments and pop that it will be hard to hit the Early Empire eureka otherwise.

    Once you unlock Early Empire you can then run both Colonization and Agoge. Your cap and first expand produce settlers (you can keep producing units in the first expand if it hasn't grown yet) and then all new cities pump out more warriors. Then I go straight for Political Philosophy, and I continue to do this until Political Philosophy is complete. You can have 5-6 cities of your own and a carpet of warriors that will soon be Legions.

    I like having ranged support, so I usually open with slingers (at least three, maybe more depending on production in my cap). So tech wise the early game plan is to get Archery ASAP, and then it's a choice between beelining either Currency or Iron Working, depending on whether or not I have adequate gold to support a force of Legions without needing Commerce Hubs. If gold is low go for Currency first; if gold is high go for Iron Working first. Legions are somewhat expensive to upgrade at 110 each. One way to ensure you have the gold is to leave your first victim a city or two and take all their gold in a peace deal. You will be able to deal with them easily enough (1-2 Legions may be enough if you crippled them) in 20 turns.

    Early encampments are also highly recommended, as getting the classical great general (I know it's not always possible) helps immensely. Encampment projects can help if you are competitive in the race for the first general and give some gold which may be useful if the map hasn't given you much. Even if you miss the first general the second can buff both crossbowmen and the musketmen your Legions will become, so not all is lost if you don't get one early.
     
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  12. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    You are forgetting about the craftsman policy. I can easily get +10 with the Hansa and that card. Half price for an industrial district also has a snowballing effect since you'll be saving hammers on everything you build and getting them faster than everyone (which you are completely ignoring in your 'break even' calculation). You can even go higher than +10 if you overlap your commercial hubs in a way that maximizes the adjacency (it's a little tricky to pull off and might require subpar city placement though). Not to mention you'll get getting tons of engineer points - combining this with the mausoleum for double charges gives an overwhelming advantage. We didn't even mention Germany's extra district which doesn't have a huge impact early, but it sure does once you hit Hansas.

    In most of my Deity games - city states go down very quickly. Liberating them gives you 20 turns of +100% production with Aus. It's pretty easy to repeat this bonus multiple times with a little planning.
     
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  13. Obi_Ganj_Kenobi

    Obi_Ganj_Kenobi Chieftain

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    I'd vote for Persia at b since they're kind of a weaker Rome. Their early culture bonuses are similar, but Persia requires the production for a worker and trader to actually get that +1 culture. Rome simply has to found that particular city and gets an immediate +2.
    So, on a per city basis, Persia has to invest 60 hammers in a monument just to reach parity with Rome, 40 hammers towards a trader, and another 50 for a worker to access it's unique improvement.

    Their UU are both swordsmen replacements, but I honestly would prefer the legions over immortals. I can have a strong melee strength unit supplemented by archers with Rome, or just a slightly stronger Archer with Persia Immortals just aren't as effective taking cities compared to legions with seige towers.

    The only areas where Persia's bonuses best Rome is their movement bonuses, which undeniably are strong, and their gold bonuses, which, with gold being not as important in VI, isn't too significant.

    Also, a word on the early GG. As far as risky early game investments go, encampment project rushing has been one of the lowest risk, highest reward strategies for me, and it fits very well with the legion's tech path. I very rarely lose Hamilcar Barca to the diety AI.
     
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  14. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    My personal ranking would be

    A tier: Aztecs, Scythia, Sumeria, Nubia, Germany, and Macedon
    B tier: Australia, Rome, Persia, Arabia, England, Russia, and Greece
    C tier: Japan, Poland, China, Norway, America, and Kongo
    D tier: Spain, Brazil, Egypt, India, and France
     
  15. Vahnstad

    Vahnstad Chieftain

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    Where would we put Khmer and Indonesia. I believe Indonesia is at least tier B, but definitely A tier or God tier for both tall and fractal maps.
     
  16. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    Thus far I think Indonesia is about B tier and Kmer maybe C. For deity play, Kmer only has one real trump card, the elephant ballista. And it comes too late in the tech tree to be a huge advantage. By the time you have it, the AI has knights which make it difficult to use rather than just using your own knights with battering ram. At least if you could upgrade into it from catapult, then it would be solid. But having to build them slows you down a lot at that point. Battering rams would be more effective.

    Indonesia on the other hand has the Jong ship, which comes at Mercenaries which is great as far as timing and their relative strength. They can be upgraded into as well. So you can quickly establish a strong navy of quadremes with faith purchasing and then upgrade into Jong and go wild. On an island map they might be kinda unstoppable.
     
  17. Vahnstad

    Vahnstad Chieftain

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    God Tier:

    1)Alexander (Macedonia)

    2)Amanitore (Nubia)

    3) Cyrus (Persia)

    4)Tomyris (Scythia)

    5) Gilgamesh (Sumeria)

    6) Gitarja (Indonesia)

    Strong Tier:

    7) Trajan (Rome)

    8) John Curtin (Australia)

    9) Peter (Russia)

    10) Gorgo (Greece)

    11) Frederick Barbarossa (Germany)

    12) Montezuma (Aztec)

    13) Hojo Tokimune (Japan)

    14) Teddy Roosevelt (America)

    Average Tier:

    14) Pericles (Greece)

    15) Saladin (Arabia)

    16) Jayavarman (Khmer)

    17) Cleopatra (Egypt)

    18) Victoria (England)

    19) Jadwiga (Poland)

    20) Gandhi (India)

    21) Mvemba a Nzinga (Kongo)

    Weak Tier:

    22) Qin Shi Huang (China)

    23) Philip II (Spain)

    24) Pedro II (Brazil)

    25) Harald Hardrada (Norway)

    26) Catherine de Medici (France)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/7987qp/pano1gs_civ_6_deity_tier_list_fall_2017_update/

    I would only put China in average tier (and maybe Spain too?), and maybe change Teddy for Pericles? And maybe Indonesia not God tier, but just strong.
     
  18. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    Teddy is definitely stronger than Pericles. With proper strategy, America's continental attack bonus is even more useful at the start of a deity game after all the buffs the AI has received through patches.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Teddy
    +5 Fantastic
    Mustang, too late
    Rough rider, too rough
    Broadcast, V strong for a cultural win in longer games.
    +1 appeal for National parks.... really?

    Peri
    Hill start bias - Fantastic
    Wildcard slot Fantastic
    Hoplite early enough to rush without iron and handy against horse armies but nerfed by no discount build cost so meh.
    Acropolis - built on hill but good adjacency and price made it equal but now with a free envoy with each its looking positive
    Culture per Suze... my oh my how this stacks late but not as good as Gorgos start culture. Its OKish

    Teddies continental bonus is a lousy +5. Safer start and safer starting attacks does make is a good starter which is a key considering for Dom diety. I struggle not considering these two equal rather than one above the other and number wise thats what has been done. Gorgo is def stronger.

    Am struggling with Indonesia above Russia and Oz...Aztecs that low?
     
  20. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    Mustang and +1 appeal for Teddy both suck. However, the Rough Rider is actually pretty strong against the AI and very cheap to maintain. AI is not very great with battle tactics so you can make great use of the Rough Rider with hills as you can easily trick the AI to attack you there and crush them.

    For the continent bonus, you just want to use the continent lense and find the AI who is there with you. Should be a easy to crush them and totally take over quickly with all your units having the bonus.

    Certainly the Hoplite is great for a little while but quickly becomes outclassed by AI archers and Xbow with their deity attack bonus. I have noticed the best use for Hoplite is destroying all barbs, since barb horsemen are useless against Hoplite.

    His wildcard bonus is the main benefit. It is great but I agree Gorgo is better than both since she gains culture on each kill.
     
  21. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have really found them useful against knights... yes hoplites vs knights in the open.
     

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