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Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ornen, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Venatoris

    Venatoris Chieftain

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    Hello.

    Follow this thread as silent reader for a long time now. :)
    Great help, tipps and hints in this forum / thread.

    Nice would be a Tier List for different cathegories. Science, Culture, Victory, Religion.
    A friend and i play sessions against AI, so we want to try not to conquer immediately.
     
    Looksitabear likes this.
  2. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Chieftain

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    Nice, but I don't think India is anywhere near the worst. Varu are okay, stepwells are okay, and free faith is useful—they're a little on the weak side, but if you want worst try Norway/large map/fractal.
     
  3. Looksitabear

    Looksitabear Chieftain

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    That doesn't make too much sense. If chopping is stronger then having a free extra builder charge and the ability to save the actual forest tile for other stuff with wonder rushing is better, not worse. Maybe it makes China less distinct, but their objective power is better if you can do more with workers.

    You have to think in terms of opportunity cost. Yes, you chopped a temple of artemis with Korea but you could have done the same with China and still had chops and worker charges left over to rush a district or military units or whatever. If you had two workers you could have even chopped + wonder rushed and got ToA in like, 3 turns. That's not to say China would have been better in that game, but for what you were trying to accomplish in that moment it would have been.
     
  4. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    It does make them worse IMO. Anyone can now easily chop in a wonder with Magnus in a handful of turns essentially negating China's early wonder monopoly or at least severely diminishing it. I just played an immortal game where I was easily able to grab Temple of Artemis, Pyramids, and Colosseum. I would have never attempted that before R&F.
     
  5. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    You aren't likely to have Magnus early enough to chop Temple of Artemis. It is highly likely to be already built by the AI on deity before you would have Magnus. The point is, as Looksitabear said, you can rush ToA with a 4 charge builder right away before the AI is able to do anything. Then you can still have woods available to chop other things after you get Magnus.
     
  6. Looksitabear

    Looksitabear Chieftain

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    Explained before that it does make China less distinct. Anyone can rush a wonder, yes. But I disagree that these changes make them weaker. If you "spend" forest tiles on wonders, you're not spending them on other stuff. we do not have infinite forest tiles at our disposal. Everything has an oppurtunity cost. "what am I spending my hammers on now that I can be using for other stuff?" China can "save" those forest and jungle tiles by spending just the builder charge instead, letting you spend magnus forest tiles on a district or a military. Or, you can have two workers and both rush AND chop combined for an incredibly fast rush.

    This is all aside from the fact that magnus chopping actually synergizes with extra builder charges.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  7. Venatoris

    Venatoris Chieftain

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  8. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    Agree to disagree then. I see your point but to me the primary value in China's ability is that they could pick and choose whatever wonders they want in the ancient age. Now these wonders are far from a sure bet. Would you feel comfortable putting off pyramids for a few turns now to chop in a settler or district instead against human opponents? I wouldn't. Their extra builder charge is still great, and yes they need to spend less resources than other civs to get wonders but to me that's far less of a plus than having 'dibs' on a host of early wonders. Against the AI I guess this doesn't matter too much since they probably won't be rushing any wonders with Magnus, but this is really only due to an AI deficiency. I think they will eventually nerf Magnus a little which will push China's value back up some.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  9. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I think that China's one advantage is now gone so that is not that great for them
    The extra builder charge is good but I would agree that it does not make up for the fact that wonders come easy for everyone now
     
  10. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    It's nice to have some comparison. He also defines "strong" as the surest (not fastest) way to win on Deity:

    "As such, what I did this time was assign point values to each victory type and ranked each civ at how good
    they are at each victory type. Domination victory was worth most points and Cultural victory was worth the least.
    I then added all the points each civ accumulated in each victory type and ranked them on the tier list based on
    their total score."

    Still, I would challenge some of his points:

    S Tier: Germany & Saladin in S Tier? Well, they are quite weak early on, but you can eventually get big
    effects with Hansa.
    A Tier: Tomyris in A Tier? Ok, they might suck against Mongolia, but apart from that?
    B Tier: Chandragupta? No, Varu with his abilities are really strong. But that's my opinion.
    C Tier: Seems ok.
     
  11. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    Actually I just noticed that India/Chandragupta is missing? Or did I overlook that?
     
  12. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Chieftain

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    What China gets to do is (a) pick another governor first, which may be useful, and (b) save terrain features and resources for chopping later in the game. The way chop values skyrocket, this is a big deal. They can use Magnus just like everyone else, they just use him to build late game wonders or districts instead of early wonders. Besides, desert wonders are harder to chop in early since deserts aren't usually next to forests. China still has the edge for Petra and Pyramids, and Pyramids only goes along with their free extra builder charge to make Magnus even better later in the game. On top of that, China is built for modest expansion, not constant conquest or self-founding a dozen cities (like Rome), so other changes in the expansion haven't hurt them. I don't think they're A tier, but I do think they're slightly improved, not worse.
     
  13. Venatoris

    Venatoris Chieftain

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    Yep, comparison is nice to have.
    For me Tier lists sometimes hard to "read". MP with no AI is different to SP. For example, i play the most time now SP with 1 friend and the rest AI.
    Domination still seems to dominate. :) But for both of us that is not the way we want to play. At the beginning, yeah, for testing the civs, but now...

    So a Tier list for the different types is very interesting. Perhaps to pick a civ from the bottom line.

    Read the comments at the reddit link, seems he will work on a Victory Typ List.

    Sorry for my any mistakes, english is not my native language
     
  14. Looksitabear

    Looksitabear Chieftain

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    Sorry, I thought this was a thread was discussion on Deity singleplayer, not multiplayer. Of course multiplayer changes a lot of things.

    You're right that China probably suffers a lot in multiplayer due to these changes, but not like 24/7 early aggression of the last version of 6 wasn't wrecking them hard enough. I think overall, just playing them this dlc they do benefit alot. I think moving up from C tier to B tier was perfectly fine-- would want to look for some more broken strategies or some OP classical wonder to really push them into A.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  15. Venatoris

    Venatoris Chieftain

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  16. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    Actually it does say single player only in the original post so for the purposes of this thread then B tier is probably fine too. I do think China is above average just for the extra builder charges alone which is one of my favorite abilities in the game, but their other features aren't all that strong IMO. I wasn't all that high on the wonder building charges to begin with other than for nabbing pyramids which gives them super builders and an early colosseum (Petra is overrated IMO but I will usually build it with China if there's a good spot for it). Push comes to shove I still think you can argue that in theory it's less strong with opponents that play in a more optimal fashion. I'm fine with them in B or C - they are borderline.
     
  17. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I would argue C for China. I think they are weaker than the civs that will be placed into B at this point due to good district bonuses or good military bonuses albeit not coming early enough to rival something like the Astecs or Gilgamesh. Wonder construction is not really as important as district construction

    But this discussion about China does make me think that the civ that really benefited the most from the RF is the Astecs. Their ability is REALLY overpowered now.
     
  18. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    As if they weren't good enough already :crazyeye:

    Can you elaborate though? Which ability? I know they get +4 era score right off the bat by doing nothing, but that seems pretty minor. The district rush seems a little less potent to me now because it's easier to rush them with Magnus.
     
  19. Looksitabear

    Looksitabear Chieftain

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    ou should try picking up Temple of Artemis if you ever can. It's essentially a better version of the Hanging Gardens. ToA, Pyramids and Colosseum are essentially my trifecta of "always want" ancient wonders with ToA replacing Petra.
     
  20. liv

    liv Warlord

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    My thought was that builders are so crucial in chopping with Magnus adding to the already powerful astecs
    And obviously using agoge with Magnus you can chop in jaguar warriors very early and use the overflow to build libraries and markets and wonders and what have you and then go out and get more free builders for the next round
     

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