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Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ornen, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    I meant prior to R&F - yes, I do like ToA post expansion and would prioritize with China.

    Ah good point about the overflow, yeah that probably offsets any diminished impact of LOTFS. It's also probably a little easier to capture workers now too with free cities and AI civs starting so close.
     
  2. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    I have played a number of games on the expansion at deity difficulty, with a number of civs.

    Getting Temple of Artemis with any civ other than China requires extreme luck. You are just not likely to have Magnus at that point. Playing on a large map standard speed, the AI will have it by turn 35-40. It's just not feasible in most instances to get it with any other civ without severely hampering your growth, and even then, you still might not get there in time. However, with China it is pretty much automatic. I don't think I have ever failed to get it with China if i had a camp nearby, and I have even been able to build a settler, have that settler go find a camp, settle next to it, then use China's builders to quickly crank out Temple of Artemis in that city! This is not a minor ability. Temple of Artemis is not like game ending obviously, but if you can get it it is really really strong given the new loyalty system. With China you can forward settle an AI, crank out a ToA, then have that secondary city grow to 10 pop before turn 100. By playing things right, you can start flipping their cities very quickly.

    Regarding other wonders:

    Oracle - AI will have by about turn 45-55
    Pyramid - AI will have it by about turn 65-75
    Petra - AI will have it by about turn 80-90
    Colluseum - AI will have it by about turn 110-120

    I have played games with China where I get ToA, Oracle, and Pyramid and still have 8 to 9 cities by turn 100. Then I can usually nab Colluseum too, which can also be built through China's worker charges! (and if you have pyramid, you get 5 charges, which means one worker = 75% of build cost!) This is nearly impossible with any other civ, and it makes you a powerhouse early in the game.

    I don't think China is the best civ. There are others that are clearly better, but i'm just saying I have already tested out a LOT of the civs under the new mechanics in deity and the loyalty/ages system has really nerfed a lot of them. China is one of the few civs that actually benefits from this new system. Even going beyond just the benefits of the wonders, China is able to rack up a lot of era points in the early and mid game because in addition to cranking out wonders both of their uniques come in early and mid game. This can (and many times has) been the difference between going from a golden age to dark age, vs going from a golden age to a normal age. Most civs have a very very hard time not going dark after a golden age. China has a strong chance to avoid that by just racking up points by building its special unit, a great wall piece, and a wonder.

    I haven't tried all of the civs under the new mechanics yet, but most of them that I have played I have felt the nerf. Try out China for a few games and snag the wonders. Trust me, the loyalty/era system will feel a lot easier with them.
     
  3. Looksitabear

    Looksitabear Chieftain

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    ^ you've clearly put a lot of work in the new expansion. What is the overall affect of the loyalty/era system in your opinion, and who are its "few winners"?

    That guy who authored the reddit tier list before seems to think that Japan does very well with an early dark age, for example. You think that might be one?
     
  4. Athmos

    Athmos Chieftain

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    I don't have a completely formed idea of who benefits or losses the most from the era system. I didn't have issues getting and chaining golden ages with China, but I didn't have issue with Rome, Aztecs, or Zulus either.
    Despite a few Lavra, I got into a Dark classical age with my latest and current game (Russia), but I ended up benefiting from it so much with an Heroic Age in the Medieval Era (man, THREE dedication ! I hadn't paid attention) and then chained Golden age without even thinking about it that I think that might be something I'll actually try to replicate in the future.

    If I had goddess of the harvest, I would sure have liked a classical monumentality but as it was, I didn't feel like I was missing much since despite a few nice Lavra, I wouldn't have had the faith to actually spam much of anything in the classical era.

    So okay, I got Stonhenge and ToA with China, couldn't get it with the other. First dib on religion was nice, ToA is a nice boost, but Frankly my China game (which is unfinished) was probably the weakest one I played since R&F.
     
  5. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Mapuche's 10 strength advantage is quite strong in early game. It is dependent on luck (neighbour enters golden age). I think that saves them from being a bottom civ at least
     
  6. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    I've played a few more games trying out the new civs on deity.

    Mongol was fun, but they take so long to get going that I don't know how practical they are on average on Deity. Their mounted units are great, but by the time you have buffed horsemen up (through their unique building) the AI is probably closing in on knights or already has them, and they definitely have walls. Possibly pikemen. I tried several games with them and only one or two felt particularly good as compared to most other civs. I have them slightly below average.

    Korea I have also tried several games with. Their science advantage is pretty strong. Even just having reduced fee campuses I think is a pretty huge bonus, since it allows you to get campuses going very early in every city. Since their campuses also automatically start at +4, placement tends to be pretty easy. I would probably put them at the top of the list for the expansion civs so far due to their ability to tech up quickly and dominate great scientists.

    Have tried several starts with Robert the Bruce. I have found him to be pretty underwhelming (without using any exploits). War of liberation has kind of rarely even come into play to be honest. He seems to start slow and is slow to catch up on deity. I have him toward the bottom.

    Have also tried several games with Cree. The trade route bonuses are very nice, and their special scout is cool, but they seem otherwise to be pretty middle of the pack.

    Georgia I have only played a couple games with, and so far I haven't really had any fun with them. They also seem to be slow starting, and don't excel at most victory conditions. I have them near the bottom.

    Mapuche, Netherlands, Zulu and new Indian leader I haven't really had much play with yet. Altogether, it is hard to say any of the new civs is OP in the same way that some others have felt like that when introduced. I think this is mainly just due to the way the era and loyalty systems have kind of nerfed the deity game in a lot of ways. The expansion is fun, but the loyalty system in particular has so drastically impacted the game and I am not certain if I would say in a good way. I might be more inclined to say in a bad way. There are many ways where the loyalty system can kind of screw you but only a few ways that it is likely to benefit you, so it becomes more of a "micro-management" mechanic that doesn't necessarily add that much to the game. (Yes, there have been instances where the AI cities flip to me through loyalty, but given the multitude of ways that the AI can prevent a flip at the last second, it's not necessarily all that consistent.)
     
  7. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Chandragupta is good. I would say tier B. His ability to get movement and strength from declaring a "War of Territorial Expansion" makes varus even stronger.
     
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  8. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    I got the feeling Mongolia is specifically designed to counter cavalry civs like Scythia & Sumeria.
     
  9. whacker

    whacker Chieftain

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    Actually all of mongols boni come pretty early. As soon as you have a trader, an encampment and horseback riding, mongols are online. I think mongols are one of the best civs right now, 5 movement +9 cs horses are the real deal. :D
     
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  10. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    Didn't really try them yet. If you say they're so great I should give it a try. I just felt you have to hard build Keshiqs & I'm not sure how often you have a chance to capture cavalry units (And thereby save production). In general I would favor speed quite a lot.
    Regarding combat strength, you are right +3 for cavalry & +3 for traders/delegations is neat, but other civs also get smaller combat bonuses for diplomatic visibility. Scythia has +5 against wounded units & extra healing, but since their horsemen upgrade to cavalry, its not as smooth as other civs.
     
  11. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Chieftain

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    Yea, like I said the Mongolian mounted units are great. But if you want the full benefits (with their unique building in the encampment) you won't have that + a few horse units until like turn 60 or so. Maybe 70. I'm not saying they aren't strong. They are very strong. But the issue is a lot of AI civs will have knights by that point on deity. The benefit is that these fully buffed Mongolian horsemen hold up decently against knights, but they aren't as strong so if you get to that point, you will get bogged down fighting at best a war of attrition (assuming you have superior numbers). Also, the AI will definitely have walls at that point, so you will need battering ram too. Most of this will need hard build, unless you got very lucky with luxury resources or got a nice emergency victory (the only game that I had which was really strong with Mongolia out of maybe 7 or 8 was one where I got an easy Emergency victory, and used the gold to buy horsemen and battering ram). I just don't think their strength comes early enough on a consistent basis. Scythia and Sumeria will be a lot stronger on average. (though capturing War Carts with Mongolia is kind of funny :) ).
     
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  12. Esperr

    Esperr Chieftain

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    The keshiks were just to squishy on deity when i played them. I was getting one shotted by knights.
     
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  13. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    Couldn't you use a chariot rush instead and just upgrade them to knights? In that case you'll easily have the dominant army again. Mongols are arguably the best R&F civ IMO. Korea seems far weaker on Deity in the early game.
     
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  14. liv

    liv Warlord

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    Just wondering. You would say the Mongols are better than the Zulus or better than Chandra? I am not sure yet. Just have not played enough
     
  15. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    Those are the two new civs that I have yet to try. The zulu certainly look strong and the early DOW with varu and movement/combat bonuses looks pretty deadly as well. They are probably comparable - I think I'd have them all in B tier.
     
  16. huntss

    huntss Chieftain

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    What do you think would be in the top tier for deity then, out of all the civs? And would this only be if you are dominating early?
     
  17. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    I like the A tier as it stands now on page 1 except that I would probably have Rome and Persia in B tier and Australia in A tier (maybe). I tried the Zulu last night and they are pretty unstoppable once they get corps but I do think the Mongols are slightly better. I think the tiers here are for all victory conditions, but the civs with powerful early unique units do generally get ranked high (which I agree with).
     
  18. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Chieftain

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    I see a lot of posts here about moving Rome A --> B. Doesn't R&F actually help Rome? The loyalty system rewards building and growing your own cities early, which was already Rome's game, and the Ancestral Hall makes that easier to do. Baths are better because there is more incentive to grow cities. Legions get a boost from the Oligarchic legacy card. Maybe Rome should have been demoted after Nubia and Macedon were released, but should get promoted back now.
     
  19. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Chieftain

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    Thoughts on how R&F affects existing civs:

    Arabia: Improved. They're built for science and conquest complemented by faith, not for outright religious victory. The broader usefulness of faith helps a civ that will have lots of faith but doesn't necessarily have to crank out faith units constantly for a religious victory. Mamlucks are still awesome, and if long-distance conquest is harder, not needing iron is more valuable. Still a B for me but I don't think a case for A would be far-fetched.

    China: Improved. There are more good wonders, wonders give era score, and extra chops are worth more with Magnus. Stays at B but I would have had them C before.

    Rome: Improved, as I argued in the previous post. A.

    France: Definitely better, but I haven't played them yet.

    Japan: Slightly better. The GP dovetails with maximizing adjacency boni, and cheap encampments may be a little better when it's harder to get strategic resources by distant conquest. With more benefits from faith, you might want to eventually build Holy Sites even when not going for religion. Tier C.

    England: Weaker. As far as I can tell, they've lost the ability to have twice as many trade routes as anyone else, and conquest on foreign continents is now harder. The new RND bonus doesn't seem like enough to compensate. Down to D.

    Thoughts on the two new civs I've played.

    Korea: A half-priced campus is amazing cake by itself. Extra science and food on top is icing, and then culture and faith from governors is like a second desert. I think they're likely to get lots of early attention from neighbors in MP, and that makes them fun to have in the game. Makes the game pretty easy in single player. Tier A.

    Cree: I created a thread about their weakness after a couple of bad starts, and other users here convinced me they're stronger than I thought. They remind me of Spain from Civ V, in that every map is a different experience. If they start next to five or six pastures they're probably the strongest civ in the game, because they're going to wind up with +10 food per city (considering the UI) plus a bunch of gold. They can also pretty easily get nothing from the map, and then they're pedestrian. Tier B, but extremely variable.
     
  20. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    I agree about Cree being highly dependent on starting location but I think they get a boost for the fact that every single one of their bonuses is almost immediately available and they are practically guaranteed a golden age early because of their uniques. I would also have them in B tier, but I haven't tested them on Deity.

    I'd rank the new civs as follows:

    Mongols, Korea, Zulu, India(Chandragupta), Mapuche, and Cree: B tier
    Dutch and Scotland - C tier
    Georgia - D tier
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018

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