Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

To be honest , I don't really think Russia is quite that good. Maybe when you create that new tier they could move down into it?

I mean their Cossack is fairly late and not the most amazing UU.

The leader UA is poor. Even if you're behind, it doesn't seem like a very strong ability compared to others .

The tundra bonus is pretty meh. They're bad tiles, so improving them a bit just makes them less bad , but still not great . The extra land however is definitely a strong bonus. Makes grabbing resources and good tiles much quicker, cheaper and easier.

The Lavra is great if you're going for a religious victory. And unique districts are just strong in general . But it's not as useful if you're going for any other victory . Decent, but not amazing .

Overall I think they're a good civ, but not quite up to the level of Scythia, Sumeria or Rome. Can't really comment on Japan or Aztecs as I haven't played them yet.

I think this is the real question with Russia--how strong is the Lavra if not going for a Religious Victory? With relatively little investment you'll get a ton of faith and quite possibly a religion as well. But does that really make that big a difference? How strong are faith purchasing strategies?

I'm with you on the rest of it. The extra tiles are awesome, the tundra bonus is decent, the LUA and the UU are bad. Just haven't made up my mind about the Lavra.
 
Playing England on diety on a island plates map, and having their harbor available in every city is pretty nuts. Saves you a gigantic chunk of hammers and subpar cities still get you that trade route up and running pretty quick. But imagining them on my previous game's map and I would only have had 2 harbors, so the tier seems appropriate.

Their other stuff isn't that useful yet. I was surprised, on island plates it has stuck many small landmasses into a small number of 'continents', much more difficult than I'd anticipated to get that free melee unit, so again very situational bonus. I'm sure the museum will be useful, just havn't gotten there.

Redcoat is just on an unfortunate part of the tree, beelining factories is too important and then at that point why not keep going for power plants...I just don't see getting him early enough for it to be really strong. But I would be interested in a bottom tree strategy focused on beelining redcoats and going full on for domination with a snowballing army of redcoats. Save gold to buy a few right off the bat and then the free redcoats for every conquered city will carry you from there.
 
I really strongly agree with Russia being on the second Tier.

It's easy to think "I could have bought those tiles anyway" but getting them so early is immense, it's a direct boost to gold, food and production. It really helps to get the snowball rolling downhill and that's what high level play is about.

The Lavra is amazing because it's available early and you can build it in every city. It grants double the great profit points which allows you to push for a really early religion and you really should beat even the Deity AI. And it grants writer, artist and musician points. This adds to culture, which helps you get new governments and policies earlier. I normally have too many works of writing and these make great AI bribes.

The tundra bonuses changes mined Tundra Hills from "Meh" to amazing production with a bonus point of faith. Even after just Machinery tech, that's a 6 yield tile. It also makes Tundra Forest tiles usable and River Forest Tundra amazing. And you can just plonk districts down on the plain tundra tiles (which still suck).

I'm not going to claim Peters leader bonus is any good, it's not, but it really doesn't matter, and it may actually have some use against a deity AI since they will be ahead of you.

So in short, they have great bonuses which are solid on Deity. They don't fit every play style but surely that's what you want from a civ?
 
I think Egypt should get downgraded to the D tier. They are pretty close to not having any sort of bonus at all.
  • Unique tile improvements are universally bad and the sphinx is no better.
  • The Maryannu Chariot Archer is really expensive at 140 cogs. You could almost get three archers for that. These are just too expensive to mass and they are still fragile at only 23 melee strength. Also since they upgrade to crossbows you lose out on being able to produce cheap heavy chariots and upgrade to knights.
  • Cleopatra's trade route boon is better for others at +2 food than to you at +2 gold. Even the +4 gold from sending a trade route is not better than just keeping the routes domestic for the roads, hammers and food. Maybe if you had great trading partners it'd add up to something but with most AI permanently unhappy and denouncing when not invading, international trade is pretty lackluster.
  • All you really have is the +15% bonus for building on a river. This tends to screw up your district layouts if you try and follow it or you end up ignoring it. Wonders tend to have precise placement requirements which again don't necessarily fit in along a river.
What am I missing that makes Egypt at the tier C with good civs like England? At least Spain can be dominant if they get a religion.
 
To be honest , I don't really think Russia is quite that good. Maybe when you create that new tier they could move down into it?

I mean their Cossack is fairly late and not the most amazing UU.

The leader UA is poor. Even if you're behind, it doesn't seem like a very strong ability compared to others .

The tundra bonus is pretty meh. They're bad tiles, so improving them a bit just makes them less bad , but still not great . The extra land however is definitely a strong bonus. Makes grabbing resources and good tiles much quicker, cheaper and easier.

The Lavra is great if you're going for a religious victory. And unique districts are just strong in general . But it's not as useful if you're going for any other victory . Decent, but not amazing .

Overall I think they're a good civ, but not quite up to the level of Scythia, Sumeria or Rome. Can't really comment on Japan or Aztecs as I haven't played them yet.

I think this is the real question with Russia--how strong is the Lavra if not going for a Religious Victory? With relatively little investment you'll get a ton of faith and quite possibly a religion as well. But does that really make that big a difference? How strong are faith purchasing strategies?

I'm with you on the rest of it. The extra tiles are awesome, the tundra bonus is decent, the LUA and the UU are bad. Just haven't made up my mind about the Lavra.

I really strongly agree with Russia being on the second Tier.

It's easy to think "I could have bought those tiles anyway" but getting them so early is immense, it's a direct boost to gold, food and production. It really helps to get the snowball rolling downhill and that's what high level play is about.

The Lavra is amazing because it's available early and you can build it in every city. It grants double the great profit points which allows you to push for a really early religion and you really should beat even the Deity AI. And it grants writer, artist and musician points. This adds to culture, which helps you get new governments and policies earlier. I normally have too many works of writing and these make great AI bribes.

The tundra bonuses changes mined Tundra Hills from "Meh" to amazing production with a bonus point of faith. Even after just Machinery tech, that's a 6 yield tile. It also makes Tundra Forest tiles usable and River Forest Tundra amazing. And you can just plonk districts down on the plain tundra tiles (which still suck).

I'm not going to claim Peters leader bonus is any good, it's not, but it really doesn't matter, and it may actually have some use against a deity AI since they will be ahead of you.

So in short, they have great bonuses which are solid on Deity. They don't fit every play style but surely that's what you want from a civ?

Dargov makes the case very well here. "How strong is the Lavra if you're not going for a religious victory" has two answers.
  1. If you're going for a culture victory, it's very, very good. Those bonus points to writers, artists and musicians allow Russia to dominate the early culture game, and they're damn near impossible to beat for those GPs if they build culture districts as well. The only caveat is you'll have more great works than you'll need – you can either save your great works or you can sell the GPs for loads of money.
  2. Religion offers a broad set of bonuses that help with all victories. Grab theocracy and start buying units, grab jesuit education and you can buy campus and culture buildings with faith. Either way you're saving big on production, which is a key resource in Civ 6 (buying culture buildings has the added bonus of making room for your great works). These are far from the only religious bonuses that can be a big help for other victories.
As for tundra, Dargov is also spot-on there. It's not about improving mediocre tiles, it's about turning tundra production tiles into beastly tiles. You can always build districts on the flatlands, and I've yet to encounter the Civ 6 game where I've really needed to improve every tile. That said, Civ 6's starts are wonkier than in other games, and that can hurt Russia – I even saw one start that was all tundra, no river. Ugh.

Playing England on diety on a island plates map, and having their harbor available in every city is pretty nuts. Saves you a gigantic chunk of hammers and subpar cities still get you that trade route up and running pretty quick. But imagining them on my previous game's map and I would only have had 2 harbors, so the tier seems appropriate.

Their other stuff isn't that useful yet. I was surprised, on island plates it has stuck many small landmasses into a small number of 'continents', much more difficult than I'd anticipated to get that free melee unit, so again very situational bonus. I'm sure the museum will be useful, just havn't gotten there.

Redcoat is just on an unfortunate part of the tree, beelining factories is too important and then at that point why not keep going for power plants...I just don't see getting him early enough for it to be really strong. But I would be interested in a bottom tree strategy focused on beelining redcoats and going full on for domination with a snowballing army of redcoats. Save gold to buy a few right off the bat and then the free redcoats for every conquered city will carry you from there.

Yep. I'm still considering moving England up, but their bonuses are kinda situational.

I think Egypt should get downgraded to the D tier. They are pretty close to not having any sort of bonus at all.
  • Unique tile improvements are universally bad and the sphinx is no better.
  • The Maryannu Chariot Archer is really expensive at 140 cogs. You could almost get three archers for that. These are just too expensive to mass and they are still fragile at only 23 melee strength. Also since they upgrade to crossbows you lose out on being able to produce cheap heavy chariots and upgrade to knights.
  • Cleopatra's trade route boon is better for others at +2 food than to you at +2 gold. Even the +4 gold from sending a trade route is not better than just keeping the routes domestic for the roads, hammers and food. Maybe if you had great trading partners it'd add up to something but with most AI permanently unhappy and denouncing when not invading, international trade is pretty lackluster.
  • All you really have is the +15% bonus for building on a river. This tends to screw up your district layouts if you try and follow it or you end up ignoring it. Wonders tend to have precise placement requirements which again don't necessarily fit in along a river.
What am I missing that makes Egypt at the tier C with good civs like England? At least Spain can be dominant if they get a religion.

This is a strong case. I might swap Egypt and France when I update. When the game came out, I expected their wonder and trade bonuses to be strong, but it doesn't look like a strong set now that I come back to it. I'm hesitant to rank Civs on the "D-list", which is part of the reason I might move France up. But Egypt does seem to fit the profile.
 
India's Stepwells are pretty solid. In the early game, they're strictly better than Farms for some locations. Definitely build them then. After Sanitation, they give +2 Housing and can be built anywhere, so each isolated (can't be built adjacent to each other) Tundra and Desert tile in the later game translates to +2 Housing for India. That can save you some turns on a Neighborhood or Aqueduct. A City on the edge of a Desert with some extra Desert tiles could get something like +6 Housing from Stepwells after Sanitation pretty easily. That's fairly strong. Not useful on crowded core cities or if you build ICS-style because you'll need the space.

Sumeria's Ziggurats are also pretty alright. +2 Science +1 Culture is nothing to sneeze at. That's better than the output of a Science Specialist. Later, they're +2 Science, +2 Culture - useful for pushing borders out. If you have an isolated river tile that you aren't using for a District or Wonder, it makes sense to Ziggurat that until you have a better use for it. Also useful for when you're near the Housing Caps, since the extra food is only worth 25% at that point.
 
I think Teddy Roosevelt needs to be moved down to bottom tier the +5 bonus on home continent is the only consistent perk TR has going for him. He's basically a vanilla civ.
 
I think Egypt should get downgraded to the D tier. They are pretty close to not having any sort of bonus at all.
  • Unique tile improvements are universally bad and the sphinx is no better.
  • The Maryannu Chariot Archer is really expensive at 140 cogs. You could almost get three archers for that. These are just too expensive to mass and they are still fragile at only 23 melee strength. Also since they upgrade to crossbows you lose out on being able to produce cheap heavy chariots and upgrade to knights.
  • Cleopatra's trade route boon is better for others at +2 food than to you at +2 gold. Even the +4 gold from sending a trade route is not better than just keeping the routes domestic for the roads, hammers and food. Maybe if you had great trading partners it'd add up to something but with most AI permanently unhappy and denouncing when not invading, international trade is pretty lackluster.
  • All you really have is the +15% bonus for building on a river. This tends to screw up your district layouts if you try and follow it or you end up ignoring it. Wonders tend to have precise placement requirements which again don't necessarily fit in along a river.
What am I missing that makes Egypt at the tier C with good civs like England? At least Spain can be dominant if they get a religion.

Well sphinx on paper is not so bad, probably its a civ that require a bit of luck with map, I mean I abandoned it cause I was never able to make it roll but in theory, district + some wonder and 2 3 sphinx early could be great for grabbing a religion and snowballing, trade route is probably better for you anyway, I mean AI is ahead anyway, some more food can change anything ? I dont think so, while free stuff for a human might make it roll more, its not competitive multiplayer...
Chariot Archer feels useless yeah, the problem is always the same, archers are too OP so whatever exit the archer path cant be op as well, in the time you have this UU your archers are +3 at least and all you care is making them survive till +4 and xbow so you have your laser cannons...
 
I think Teddy Roosevelt needs to be moved down to bottom tier the +5 bonus on home continent is the only consistent perk TR has going for him. He's basically a vanilla civ.

I know we often write off late game bonuses, but the +5 combat strength on his continent is the perfect supplement to a late game Civ Vs the Deity AI. There are 2 things that can possibly happen in a game, you win or you lose, and these things can happen either late or early.

If you loose early it's generally because you've been overrun on your home turf. Assuming you are not rubbish, hence playing against the deity AI, you need to hold your ground. +5 combat strength is enormous towards achieving this.

If you lose late, it because you have been either been unable to achieve your own victory faster enough, (films studios speed this up) or because you didn't have a solid enough foundation to begin with. You don't need to conquer the entire world, one continent is normally enough to ensure you are late game competitive.

Sure, the other bonuses are small, but they push you in the right direction. The founding father's bonus is small, but its a bonus from doing nothing.
+5 combat not enough to conquer your continent? Wait until you have Rough Riders.
Rough Riders didn't quite clear the Aztecs off the homeland? Do it with air superiority.
So now you control your entire home continent, what are you going to do now? Go to Disneyland with a Culture win.

The only thing Teddy doesn't help you with that much, is a very early game world domination. But he's not supposed to.
 
I'd argue that the only thing he is good at is early game domination +5 on home continent to get started on sword/archer push. The rest is basically filler for a rather bland Civ. At the very least Civs in the bottom tier aren't actually worse than vanilla civs as was the case with the Hiawatha and the Iroquois in Civ5
 
I'd argue that the only thing he is good at is early game domination +5 on home continent to get started on sword/archer push. The rest is basically filler for a rather bland Civ. At the very least Civs in the bottom tier aren't actually worse than vanilla civs as was the case with the Hiawatha and the Iroquois in Civ5

Swords not needing iron was pretty cool, but arguably he wans't great, especially on higher difficulties where a sword timing was getting pretty bad by the time BNW rolled out.

I'm finding any combat bonuses to be really good, in this case, he can carve out a chunk of the continent early game when warmonger penalties are low very easily, and later he hinges on other stuff.

Founding Fathers is rather subtle I must admit though, but I don't think it's bad. He's on my list of civs I want to explore.
 
My point about Hiawatha was that long houses removed the percentage multiplier so it ended up being a worse UB than vanilla for tall civs.
 
I think Egypt should get downgraded to the D tier. They are pretty close to not having any sort of bonus at all.
  • Unique tile improvements are universally bad and the sphinx is no better.
  • The Maryannu Chariot Archer is really expensive at 140 cogs. You could almost get three archers for that. These are just too expensive to mass and they are still fragile at only 23 melee strength. Also since they upgrade to crossbows you lose out on being able to produce cheap heavy chariots and upgrade to knights.
  • Cleopatra's trade route boon is better for others at +2 food than to you at +2 gold. Even the +4 gold from sending a trade route is not better than just keeping the routes domestic for the roads, hammers and food. Maybe if you had great trading partners it'd add up to something but with most AI permanently unhappy and denouncing when not invading, international trade is pretty lackluster.
  • All you really have is the +15% bonus for building on a river. This tends to screw up your district layouts if you try and follow it or you end up ignoring it. Wonders tend to have precise placement requirements which again don't necessarily fit in along a river.
What am I missing that makes Egypt at the tier C with good civs like England? At least Spain can be dominant if they get a religion.

I'm with you on Egypt's trade route bonus and the sphinx. Pretty worthless.

I think the river bonus is a little better than you suggest. The Commercial Hub is probably the most important district in the game and is usually placed on a river. And you often want to cluster your districts together, so you might put others on the river too, next to the hub. Not really a gamechanging bonus though.

About the Maryannu Chariot Archer--another unfortunate thing about it is that it's classed as Ranged, so despite the fact that it's a chariot, it gets the 50% production card, not the 100% production card that mounted units get. Oh well. It's still pretty decent though. What you can do is still build your usual band of Slingers and Archers in the very early game, then add two or three Chariot Archers to the mix later. With their speed they'll reach the front lines quickly and their 33 ranged attack can be pretty devastating. But yeah, this is a unit that would definitely look better if Archers weren't so incredibly efficient.

Overall... I'd say probably D tier. The C tier Civs are quite good on average, and I'm not sure Egypt can quite keep up. I might put Egypt and France together, then create an even lower tier for Spain and Norway.
 
India's Stepwells are pretty solid. In the early game, they're strictly better than Farms for some locations. Definitely build them then. After Sanitation, they give +2 Housing and can be built anywhere, so each isolated (can't be built adjacent to each other) Tundra and Desert tile in the later game translates to +2 Housing for India. That can save you some turns on a Neighborhood or Aqueduct. A City on the edge of a Desert with some extra Desert tiles could get something like +6 Housing from Stepwells after Sanitation pretty easily. That's fairly strong. Not useful on crowded core cities or if you build ICS-style because you'll need the space.

Sumeria's Ziggurats are also pretty alright. +2 Science +1 Culture is nothing to sneeze at. That's better than the output of a Science Specialist. Later, they're +2 Science, +2 Culture - useful for pushing borders out. If you have an isolated river tile that you aren't using for a District or Wonder, it makes sense to Ziggurat that until you have a better use for it. Also useful for when you're near the Housing Caps, since the extra food is only worth 25% at that point.

I'm interested in trying out India. That said, I still have reservations about the housing but no amenities bonus. I'll have to try a tall game with them or Kongo soon. As for the Ziggurat, it looks decent. Not the best thing they have going from, but still a solid way to round out a strong civ.

Well sphinx on paper is not so bad, probably its a civ that require a bit of luck with map, I mean I abandoned it cause I was never able to make it roll but in theory, district + some wonder and 2 3 sphinx early could be great for grabbing a religion and snowballing, trade route is probably better for you anyway, I mean AI is ahead anyway, some more food can change anything ? I dont think so, while free stuff for a human might make it roll more, its not competitive multiplayer...
Chariot Archer feels useless yeah, the problem is always the same, archers are too OP so whatever exit the archer path cant be op as well, in the time you have this UU your archers are +3 at least and all you care is making them survive till +4 and xbow so you have your laser cannons...

I'm with you on Egypt's trade route bonus and the sphinx. Pretty worthless.

I think the river bonus is a little better than you suggest. The Commercial Hub is probably the most important district in the game and is usually placed on a river. And you often want to cluster your districts together, so you might put others on the river too, next to the hub. Not really a gamechanging bonus though.

About the Maryannu Chariot Archer--another unfortunate thing about it is that it's classed as Ranged, so despite the fact that it's a chariot, it gets the 50% production card, not the 100% production card that mounted units get. Oh well. It's still pretty decent though. What you can do is still build your usual band of Slingers and Archers in the very early game, then add two or three Chariot Archers to the mix later. With their speed they'll reach the front lines quickly and their 33 ranged attack can be pretty devastating. But yeah, this is a unit that would definitely look better if Archers weren't so incredibly efficient.

Overall... I'd say probably D tier. The C tier Civs are quite good on average, and I'm not sure Egypt can quite keep up. I might put Egypt and France together, then create an even lower tier for Spain and Norway.

Sphinx on paper is pretty bad, especially since it doesn't provide GP points. Faith without religion is not terribly useful, at least in the early game. Almost everything about Egypt is bad or mediocre as far as I can tell. They have a solid wonder bonus (the only one that lasts all game?) but overall they're very lackluster.

I think Teddy Roosevelt needs to be moved down to bottom tier the +5 bonus on home continent is the only consistent perk TR has going for him. He's basically a vanilla civ.

I know we often write off late game bonuses, but the +5 combat strength on his continent is the perfect supplement to a late game Civ Vs the Deity AI. There are 2 things that can possibly happen in a game, you win or you lose, and these things can happen either late or early.

If you loose early it's generally because you've been overrun on your home turf. Assuming you are not rubbish, hence playing against the deity AI, you need to hold your ground. +5 combat strength is enormous towards achieving this.

If you lose late, it because you have been either been unable to achieve your own victory faster enough, (films studios speed this up) or because you didn't have a solid enough foundation to begin with. You don't need to conquer the entire world, one continent is normally enough to ensure you are late game competitive.

Sure, the other bonuses are small, but they push you in the right direction. The founding father's bonus is small, but its a bonus from doing nothing.
+5 combat not enough to conquer your continent? Wait until you have Rough Riders.
Rough Riders didn't quite clear the Aztecs off the homeland? Do it with air superiority.
So now you control your entire home continent, what are you going to do now? Go to Disneyland with a Culture win.

The only thing Teddy doesn't help you with that much, is a very early game world domination. But he's not supposed to.

I'd argue that the only thing he is good at is early game domination +5 on home continent to get started on sword/archer push. The rest is basically filler for a rather bland Civ. At the very least Civs in the bottom tier aren't actually worse than vanilla civs as was the case with the Hiawatha and the Iroquois in Civ5

I'm finding any combat bonuses to be really good, in this case, he can carve out a chunk of the continent early game when warmonger penalties are low very easily, and later he hinges on other stuff.

Founding Fathers is rather subtle I must admit though, but I don't think it's bad. He's on my list of civs I want to explore.

The combat bonus is a strong one, and the late game tourism shouldn't be underestimated either. Early game is pretty key, but TR's UB actually helps finish games, making it surprisingly useful for a fairly late UB. When I load up my England game, I'll have to crunch the numbers on how it would stack up instead of my royal museums. Founding Fathers is minor, but it's flexible and easy to claim. I think US is solidly above D tier, though they're not really even in talks to move up from C tier. When we move a few civs up (and maybe a couple down), I think US stays put.
 
Ornen: the Stepwells matter most in that they allow India to get to 4-5 Districts per city (pop 10-13) without additional help or additional District costs. Rome has to build Baths, but they can achieve the same. The extra growth from Stepwells before Feudalism helps push that a little more. Rome gets Amenities help, but they have to build the District, and they need to source the food. India doesn't get Amenities help, but that's not that big of a deal. You need about 5 Amenities. 3-4 unique luxuries is very doable, and the last could be a Follow Belief or the Liberalism Policy. Trading for other luxes can be done as well.

India's main strength here is that they can stack a lot of Districts in a few cities to really push those Internal Routes. Germany has a similar benefit, but lower pop means they can struggle to get enough tile output to build everything, even with the Hansa help. India gets the tile help and they can stack Districts just from sheer population. But apart from that, they're kind of like Rome, actually. Even the Varu comes online about the same and militarily is about as strong. Satyagraha can be strong, giving your enemies twice the War Weariness, and giving you free faith.

I don't know whether India should be bigger in terms of cities. I played them as getting big faster and cheaper, but once there I treated them about the same as other Civs. I'm not sure pushing the pop limit higher would be beneficial, really.
 
I think the list in the OP is decent, but it's off in a few spots for me.

First and foremost the way the game is at the moment the easiest and fastest war to win is via early game domination. By this basis every civ that doesn't have an early game Domination advantage is equally D list. This includes Germany.

So, lets clarify further what the list is? Is it:

Speed to win on standard size, standard speed, standard number of enemy civs, overall average of all map types, Deity difficulty. No re-rolling starts, no replaying from saves, etc.

If so, then my list is different.

A Tier: Significantly stronger than the rest of the pack.

Sumeria
Scythia
Aztec
Greece (Gorgo)
Rome

Now, can anything come close to domination for speed of victory, and faster than generic domination with any civ? I'm not sure as yet. My instinct is to say probably not. Religion almost surely not, culture probably not, unless there are some mechanics I've missed along the way.

Otherwise we're looking to science, which I think can probably be further optimised but I still don't think it's going to occur even with the best civs before turn 200 very often.

I've not been playing science victories, but I suspect Saladin is going to be the fastest there. He can get some huge bonuses, and with great people industry isn't as important for the science victory as people initially made out.
 
Last edited:
So, lets clarify further what the list is? Is it:

Speed to win on standard size, standard speed, standard number of enemy civs, overall average of all map types, Deity difficulty. No re-rolling starts, no replaying from saves, etc.

If so, then my list is different.

A Tier: Significantly stronger than the rest of the pack.

Sumeria
Scythia
Aztec
Greece (Gorgo)
Rome

Speed to win is not our chief criteria, 'ease' and 'smoothness' are, however nebulous they might seem. In any case, early aggression is very strong, and all of the civs you listed rate very highly by our standards.

I'm not ready to throw every VC out in favor of Domination. The best civs will have multiple options open to them, and the good news with conquest is that it can play into any victory type. Russia receives big boosts to religion and culture, as well as a nice land boost to get every city off to a nice start. That bonus is pretty similar to Rome's – where Rome gets a free monument, Russian cities simply don't need one. Rome does get the bonus culture, but Peter can easily get that via trade routes. And, of course, religion can be very useful for midgame conquests. That's why Russia rates B Tier in my book.

As for Japan, I'm still mulling them over. Their district boosts are very nice. Their combat bonus is solid, but situational. Adjacency bonuses seem overrated, and theri UB is unimpressive. They might fall a tier, to be honest.

I'm glad you brought up Saladin. Alongside the Russians and the Greeks, the Arabs are one of the most faith-capable civs at Deity-level. But where Peter excels at culture, Saladin excels at science. They both seem very capable, and in both cases, religion opens up a toolbox that isn't open to other civs without a lot of effort.
 
I think the list in the OP is decent, but it's off in a few spots for me.

First and foremost the way the game is at the moment the easiest and fastest war to win is via early game domination. By this basis every civ that doesn't have an early game Domination advantage is equally D list. This includes Germany.

So, lets clarify further what the list is? Is it:

Speed to win on standard size, standard speed, standard number of enemy civs, overall average of all map types, Deity difficulty. No re-rolling starts, no replaying from saves, etc.

If so, then my list is different.

A Tier: Significantly stronger than the rest of the pack.

Sumeria
Scythia
Aztec
Greece (Gorgo)
Rome

Now, can anything come close to domination for speed of victory, and faster than generic domination with any civ? I'm not sure as yet. My instinct is to say probably not. Religion almost surely not, culture probably not, unless there are some mechanics I've missed along the way.

Otherwise we're looking to science, which I think can probably be further optimised but I still don't think it's going to occur even with the best civs before turn 200 very often.

I've not been playing science victories, but I suspect Saladin is going to be the fastest there. He can get some huge bonuses, and with great people industry isn't as important for the science victory as people initially made out.

I agree, this list is heavily biased towards turtling/peaceful games/mid to late game.

Speed to win is not our chief criteria, 'ease' and 'smoothness' are, however nebulous they might seem. In any case, early aggression is very strong, and all of the civs you listed rate very highly by our standards.

I'm not ready to throw every VC out in favor of Domination. The best civs will have multiple options open to them, and the good news with conquest is that it can play into any victory type. Russia receives big boosts to religion and culture, as well as a nice land boost to get every city off to a nice start. That bonus is pretty similar to Rome's – where Rome gets a free monument, Russian cities simply don't need one. Rome does get the bonus culture, but Peter can easily get that via trade routes. And, of course, religion can be very useful for midgame conquests. That's why Russia rates B Tier in my book.

As for Japan, I'm still mulling them over. Their district boosts are very nice. Their combat bonus is solid, but situational. Adjacency bonuses seem overrated, and theri UB is unimpressive. They might fall a tier, to be honest.

I'm glad you brought up Saladin. Alongside the Russians and the Greeks, the Arabs are one of the most faith-capable civs at Deity-level. But where Peter excels at culture, Saladin excels at science. They both seem very capable, and in both cases, religion opens up a toolbox that isn't open to other civs without a lot of effort.

The thing is, with an early aggressive game you can have at least half of the continent under control before industrial districs kick in - besides getting a ridiculous tall empire you will be knocking other civs out of the game. When indistrial districs come into play, the sheer size of your empire will blow Germany bonus out of the water which will make the gamer "easier" and "smoother".
 
Shiren and Iamaros: But you are talking about different win conditions, it's no different from creating two lists, one for Religion and one for Science. Hell, why not create 5, one for each victory condition.

And regardless, Aztec and Greeks(Gorgo) are great for early conquest but I don't think they compare with Scythia.
 
The combat bonus is a strong one, and the late game tourism shouldn't be underestimated either. Early game is pretty key, but TR's UB actually helps finish games, making it surprisingly useful for a fairly late UB. When I load up my England game, I'll have to crunch the numbers on how it would stack up instead of my royal museums. Founding Fathers is minor, but it's flexible and easy to claim. I think US is solidly above D tier, though they're not really even in talks to move up from C tier. When we move a few civs up (and maybe a couple down), I think US stays put.

My point with Teddy is that he's solid, I agree that England (assuming not Pangea) and America are overall roughly equal and should be on the same Tier, and I really enjoy how that match up is determined by "Are they on the same continent?" Same continent is almost certainly going to go to America, and England wins if it can keep America contained via sea battles.

I think "C" Tier is a bit unfair by Association to school letter grades, S, A, B, C works better.
 
Top Bottom