Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ornen, Oct 31, 2016.

  1. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    In my experience so far with Kongo (although not at deity), the trick is to spam Commercial Districts and Theatre Squares for the GPP and postpone other districts. If you have good production in your capital, the Oracle is nuts, no one is going to beat 6 GPP/turn early game. Once you have your Palace filled with Great Works, you fly through the Medieval and Renaissance civics, most of which have very convenient boosters.

    Also, Great Merchants + fast civics + early t1-t2 governments means you will have a lot of envoys, so your districts produce more, and you can levy an army in case someone attacks you in the middle of the game before you hit Civil Engineering and Nationalism. Fast civics also means you'll have spies before other civs and more of them.
     
  2. Aenthin

    Aenthin Warlord

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    Please list him anyway. Or don't differentiate the leaders if both are on the same tier anyway. Maybe write "Greece (both leaders)" or something. That way, people won't mistake him you leaving out Pericles despite the fact that he's in the base game.

    *sigh*

    The fact that there's a bit of discussion everywhere in this thread makes it hard to track why America is put in such a place. He appears in three pages in addition to all the other discussion I am not interested in. This is just gonna get worse as time progresses because sooner or later, there may be more pages to look at. Let's not even get to the fact that it was a weekday and I may not have time to check the thread just finding the little bits of discussion.

    Just so you know, instead of prompting a user to read the thread, giving out a short summary would have been nice. Too late now, though. It's finally the weekend and I finally have time to read the entire thread. Thanks for nothing, I guess.
     
  3. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

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    More England reviews....tried the 'bottom tree Redcoat beeline into snowball' thing I mentioned earlier. It's pretty crazy once it gets going. Identify a weak backwards civ on another continent to start the snowball, send over a couple redcoats with some Sea Dogs (beeline means no frigates) and start generating an army out of nothing. The bonus redcoat on city capture can move immediately as well, hastening the blitz.

    I don't think this changes their tier because "Industrial Age conquest" is not exactly a high tier trait, no matter how well they do it. Also the 'beeline' really isn't one, because you have to get Cartography from the top of the tree, I got Apprenticeship because delaying industrial zone placement for that long is awful, and I got Math as well because not having the +1 sea movement is painful. And I got Stirrups for the Mil Science boost. It would be significantly faster if you were on a large landmass with multiple 'continents' so you can skip Math/Shipbuilding/Cartography.

    EDIT: Thinking about it, this blitz could be further improved by just building a good navy and prepping them at a weak city while Mil Science is about to pop. Boom instant redcoat already in conquest position. But anyways this is not the 'England strats thread' so I'll shut up about them :)
     
  4. BigBadB

    BigBadB Chieftain

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    The modern concept of the seaside resort did start in England.
     
  5. LanguishViking

    LanguishViking Warlord

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    Yes, Smithers, if it weren't wet, cold, overcast and next to a coal fired power plant a textile mill and a shipyard this place might have a charming appeal.
    But, Sinjin (sic), could it possibly have as much appeal as the pub?
    Verily, Smithers, it could not.
     
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  6. Ornen

    Ornen Warlord

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    I'm mulling over some changes to the list, and might have an update ready soon. Big question: do we really think Germany and Greece are a sizable step above the other civs, or are they roughly par with other strong civs such as Rome and Sumeria? I'm thinking about moving four civs up into the A tier for now

    Sounds like a strong strategy, you think it normally takes like 4-6 biulder charges to get a wonder up? Re the crouching tiger, you can build them and crossbows? So far, I'm more convinced in offense than defense with C6.

    I think they're a strong civ, this is maybe just a weird start for them. If I only I could trade this and my England start I played recently...

    Industrial age conquest probably works better as an endpoint than a start point... I think at that point you have to give up on being friends and push for the win. England definitely has a lot of options, and I think they're a strong c andidate to move up.

    Let's be clear: I don't owe you anything. The thread was three pages long when you came in, and it's just as much effort for you to read it as it is for me to rehash the same damn stuff we've already talked about. "Why isn't America bottom tier like in some other list" is the perfect example of a supremely low effort comment. If you came in with some insight as to why America was better or worse than we'd been over, I'd have more to say to you. If you come in and ask me about something we've already talked about, I'm going to tell you to read what's already been said. Not very complicated. As the thread goes on, I'll add a page-by-page index, but you shouldn't need that to see the US discussion we had in the first three pages.

    Regarding the leaders, this has been discussed as well. Civ 5 finished with 43 civs and I fully expect Civ 6 to end up with 60+ leaders. Listing one leader is much more clear, especially when the differences between them are fairly marginal. People won't mistake anything if they just read the opening post. Apparently I can't make people do that, but at least it's a clear indicator that someone has not put the minimal investment into the discussion.

    If you want to contribute to the discussion, we're happy to have you. As it is, you've been coming in here, adding nothing, asking people to rehash what's already been said, calling me out and critiquing the way I'm running the thread. Thanks for nothing? That means a lot man. You are welcome for nothing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  7. Cakeathon

    Cakeathon Warlord

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    I was surprised to see Russia this high but after playing a game I was very impressed, I was able to found a religion on diety even as a warmonger simply by weaving in a cheap lavra with divine spark after sending my archers off. the AI usually builds a holy site in the capital, 2 lavra+ holy spark seems to be enough. From a warmonger perspective It's like a better Arabia but with a slight gamble.

    As for america I would put it higher but I can see why you would think it's inconsistent even if personally I've never seen a starting continent with nobody to conquer in it. I would much rather have +5 strength archers than warcarts. I am not convinced/impressed by all those melee based strategies on diety.

    Germany is a late bloomer so it's hard for me to judge. Usually I will be score leader by a mile by the time I can build an industrial district so all it really does is seal a game that I already won with what has essentially been, up to that point, a base civ. I wouldn't even put him up there but I can see how he's interesting for some playstyles.

    As for sumeria, as I said I'm not a big fan of warcarts(or anything melee) so I don't have much of an opinion on it, if it works for other people I guess it's fine but it hasn't worked that great for me compared to archers.

    So I will focus the power comparison on gorgo vs rome which are actually my 2 favourite civs to play.

    The first advantage of both is very similar as they both get a culture head start without the need to build a monument. In practice however, gorgo's bonus is worth a lot more than trajan's free monument on diety becuase of how many units the AI throws at you. That being said trajan does get the edge at the very beginning for a likely faster code of law/craftsmanship which can mean a faster rush by a turn or 2.

    For the UU, Rome has the better one by a mile. no-iron +5 strength swordsmen with the ability to build forts on top because why the hell not, upgraded directly from warriors too. Spearmen really aren't that good in civ6 becuase of their weakness to warrior/swordsmen which the AI loves to spam and you can't upgrade your early warriors into your UU.

    The remaining bonuses are a lot harder to compare. The extra wildcard is just very strong, it guarantees an early pantheon with god-king and is very useful throughout the entire game. All roads lead to rome on the other hand while I think it is very strong it is not something as quantifiable. In practice having roads to all of your cities instantly and for free is very very useful both offensively and defensively but how much is that worth?

    I would say gorgo is a little better but it's close.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  8. SabreNation81

    SabreNation81 Chieftain

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    6 charges will complete 90% of any Ancient/Classical era wonder. It's important to make note that The First Emperor grants 15% of the ORIGINAL Wonder cost, not the remaining cost. So it is a finite boost, 6 charges will complete 90% of the original build cost. In the case of the Pyramids, China builds it for 187 hammers so each Builder charge is worth 28 hammers, 6 charges nets you 168 hammers leave 19 hammers left. Even a city with NO production aside from the +1 city center hammer will finish it in 19 turns (13 turns after builders finish), 2 production will finish it in 10(4 turns after builders), 3 hammers will have it done in 7 (next turn after builder charges.) If your city has really terrible production and you're worried an AI is going to finish it before you, you could always spend a 7th charge to be absolutely certain.

    As for the Crouching Tigers, they are an additional unit, not a replacement unit which has advantages and disadvantages. You can't upgrade archers so you have to hard build them and while they're slight cheaper than crossbowmen, they are still expensive for that point in the game at 160 hammers. However it does mean you can get CTs and still have crossbowmen as well. I agree offensive UUs are generally better than defensive ones which is a mark against them but China is clearly meant to play a defensive builder-type game so it synergizes well with the Civ. That said, the are decent offensive units as well, they do just as much damage to city centers as catapults they just don't have the range so they have to get right next to a city to attack it and just like any ranged unit they are very vulnerable to melee attacks. On defense that weakness can be negated by putting them on Great Wall tiles. On offensive, obviously, that's not an option.
     
  9. lamaros

    lamaros Warlord

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    On Arabia. I've messed about with them a little, and my view is that the "last prophet" power is actually pretty poor.

    You can reliably get a Religion on Deity, and it's best to try and get the second one, especially as Arabia, as you will likely want to get specific beliefs - depending on your victory type. I think it makes sense to at least get the ability to buy Campus buildings with Faith, and if you're last then that's often gone. I also like to get the +science faith building, and play Arabia as a defensive religion that just keeps its borders clear through inquisitors rather than tries to convert others.

    Also, unless I'm going mad it seems that building one faith building increases everything by 10% in every city, not just that one. I didn't read it as working that way, so that was a bonus. The question is if it's more or less powerful than China in that regard - I think perhaps more powerful as it's more flexible.
     
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  10. Cakeathon

    Cakeathon Warlord

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    Arabia as a whole is a little awkward because it's bonuses are almost anti-synergetic as they promote 2 completely different kinds of play.

    On one hand you can just ignore holy sites, get your free religion and build campuses to get faith anyway and essentially have a decent faith game for the price of a single holy district to pop your prophet while you pursue some other victory condition. But if you go this route righteousness of the faith is useless becuase you don't have holy sites.

    On the other hand you can play a more direct faith game where you build holy sites and make full use of righteousness of the faith but than the last prophet is pointless because you will get a religion anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
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  11. lamaros

    lamaros Warlord

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    I disagree a bit. I think that they work together if you consider the science path as:

    Get religion early that lets you build campus buildings with faith and science faith building.
    Get lots of science and lots of faith.
    Get to science space techs quick.
    Buy needed great people with faith.

    If you look at them as a religion win then it's not as great, maybe;

    Get lots of faith.
    Get a little bit of science and even more faith.
    Have so much faith you can spam the world with religious units.
    Or go theocracy and spam the world with faith bought camels.

    For the former the last prophet power isn't so great. But for the latter it is as the abilities aren't as key and you can focus on other stuff early.
     
  12. Cakeathon

    Cakeathon Warlord

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    I don't think you want to delay holy sites if your game plan is to get a religious victory, if you are going to invest this much into "other things", why not just win with those "other things" ? Not to mention the awkwardness of your tech/policy decisions if you delay holy sites in a religious game.

    It seems to me that strategies that try to fit in all the bonuses just don't sound so great.

    I mean domv with mamluk and "free" religion sounds nice. Direct faith/science victory sounds great. This delayed religion game, not so much.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
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  13. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

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    I just recently got the game and decided to try out deity after fooling around on Immortal for a bit. I did random leader and standard settings. The game gave me Sumeria. I settled where I started and started producing tons of war carts. Within a couple turns I ran into China who had 2 settlers looking to forward settle me. One was escorted. I declare war on China and immediately take both settlers with my zerg army of war carts. I then settle 2 cities while cranking out more war carts and archers and march on China's capital. I soon take that over along with an extra city China managed to settle AND another settler China had created which was hiding in that last city.

    Maybe I just got lucky on my first deity attempt, but based on the way my war cart +archer zerg was able to easily demolish any resistance of the AI and give me five cities that early in the game, Sumeria seems pretty OP for deity game.
     
  14. The Highwayman

    The Highwayman Prince

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    I don't think you got lucky in particular. You just described my in depth Sumeria strategy :D. Seriously though, any start that's not totally isolated from the opposition spells death for your nearest neighbor courtesy of War Carts. In all my games thus far, there's been a neighbor almost right on top of me.
     
  15. Hans Tork

    Hans Tork Chieftain

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    The OP has a made very well done deity tier list. I thought I might just chip in with my deity experience in Civ 6. I have completed and won deity games with nearly all civs(save for a couple maybe.) Also keep in mind that in nearly all my games I had gone for deity domination victory on mostly Continents/Pangaea maps and I am yet to get a religious victory.(I could have got science and cultural victory too but it would have taken a longer finish time.) So I have divided the civs into only 3 categories based on their advantages in early game combat and other boost.

    Tier A(civs have significant early game boosts/generally pretty good)


    Aztec(Incredible bonuses,including uber strong early game unique unit that can take pre T60 AI cities easily.)
    Scythia(double HA)
    Greece(Gorgo can get culture from war and get faster policies,especially lower army maintenance social policy.)
    China(faster archery tech means faster archer rush/stirrups/machinery and faster snowballing in current deity. Great wall is not so great so would not consider that UB.)
    Sumeria(Cart+archer rush)
    Germany(no significant early game boost but has game changing bonuses later. Hansa too OP.)

    Tier B(civs that miss the top tier by only a small margin and have decent bonuses)

    Russia(larva+cossacks. Cossacks come late but the larva at 30 hammers is a great bonus.)
    Saladin(guaranteed religion+madrassa having both science and faith)
    (Keep in note that the Theocracy govt in civ 6 is quite broken,allowing one to purchase units with faith. In deity you can purchase artillery with roughly 700+ faith. If you have been on conquest spree you would easily end up with 100+ fpt. Civs with religion bonuses thus get a slight advantage even though any civ can become a theocracy.)
    Rome(roads+free monument. Also decent UU. )

    Tier C(bland run of the mill generic civs providing little or no game-changing bonuses for deity)

    Japan(decent civ on continents and inland sea.)
    England(a tossup between tier B and C. Free unit is good but not good enough to get early game advantage.In deity currently you would be mostly conquering AI civs rather than mass producing settlers.)
    Kongo(generic early game bonus.)
    India(Varu seem great but they are not worth building compared to knights. Varu have lower mobility(2) compared to knights.Also religious bonuses are quite underwhelming.)
    Brazil(generic early game bonus.)
    Egypt(generic early game bonus.)
    USA(2 UU come only later. Initial combat bonus not too great. Again another civ that might go to Tier B or even A after I play another game.)
    Norway(Tested the 2 UU on deity continents. The long boat can take coastal cities before T40-T50 but cannot replace the current strat of archer+warrior rush.Also stave church and berserker comes way too late.)
    France(Bonus is useless on deity as most wonders will be built by the AI which will conquered by the player.Maybe there is potential for Cultural victory.)
    Spain(Again no early game bonus worth speaking. Conquistador is decent but comes way too late. I have only tested the civ on Pangaea so cannot comment on naval bonus.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  16. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    I don't see how resourceless swordsmen are considered C tier. Especially if all you're talking is domination. Most people can't even get swords because of the stiff iron requirements.
     
  17. Cakeathon

    Cakeathon Warlord

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    does faster archer tech really mean faster archer rush ? I did a lot of tests with how fast you could get 3xarcher up and running and tech speed was not the limiting factor as long as you hit the eureka. Also archery is 14 turn with base science so you are shaving... 1 turn ? so 1 turn faster archery makes you B but +5 damage on those archers on your continent makes you C ?
     
  18. Hans Tork

    Hans Tork Chieftain

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    The ability of China to is not only faster archer rush but faster stirrups(knights),faster CBs,faster tanks etc etc(should have updated that in the list). As for America the +5 on continents is great but IMHO not enough for A tier. Maybe it can go to Tier B.

    Also faster policies have an added bonus of getting the Unit maintenance card that reduces the cost of your army and later access to theocracy.(though all culture boosts may not be triggered.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  19. Hans Tork

    Hans Tork Chieftain

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    Personally I have not tried swordsmen too much(even Kongo`s UU). My general strat is building slingersx5,then maybe one warrior and then building archers exclusively and finally switching to Chariots. I then upgrade the 4-5 Chariots to knights. The Knight +CB army is enough for me to take out 5-6 civs by T180. Throwing in Catas+1 Battering ram with melee like swords (i do not prefer swords)also helps.

    Iron requirement for knights is stiff but throwing in a useless city never hurts. The Civ 6 penalty for useless cities is quite a joke.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  20. Cakeathon

    Cakeathon Warlord

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    1. for china, that is not what you wrote
    2. for america, that is not what I wrote
     

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