civ 6 is a good game with issues.

Is there any AI in any game that is not a [disguised] behavioral tree? It's an honest question, not rethorical.

Behavioral trees are not bad by definition. But different tools fit better different problems.

A classic example I could give you is the really old classic Shogun total War.

The battle tactics of the AI were governed by different sets of techniques, from the upper level, to the botton one.

At the top level, the AI was given a set of goals and very straight forward way to fulfill them, in the shape of very general directives. Then they codded for an intermediate level something which is, if I recall correctly, an expert system (a set of coded rules not very dissimilar from behavioral trees). These rules, were, a translation to game states of the principles of the art of war of Sun Tzu (these rules applied to armies and groups). At a lower level, they used pre trained Neural Networks, to model individual unit behaviors.

When they latter added complex diplomacy systems, these were handled with a Monte Carlo optimization techniques, which latter were changed to more complex algorithms capable of handle multiple and contradictory goals.

This does not mean Civ needs to use the same state of the art AI techniques. But is obvious in my opinion that some problems, like path finding, should use some optimization techniques with information not necessarily available to the player.

There are different approaches to AI, some more based on problem solving (building optimization, pathfinding, combat), and some more based on roleplaying, using specific civilization goals (diplomacy). Fxs, kind of dropped the ball, in all those systems in my opinion. Some to make easier to add more civs to the game, so they only needed to change some thresholds to code the personality of each civ.

THIS a thousand times. It is so obvious, that it's hard to understand why some people don't understand it.

Except this is not necessarily the case, and psychological effects are not that simple. People can love the Civ franchise and not love a particular iteration of the game. Or can love the game concept but not the execution. In particular, I am harsh at this game, because I love this franchise, and because of that (also my fault) I kept giving Fxs money with every expansion, and continued convincing myself I enjoyed the game much more than I really did. Differences aside, you can look at the new Star Wars movies as an extreme example. People are not mad at those movies because they secretly love them. They are mad, because they love the franchise, and movie after movie the final product was getting worse and worse, and still many were in denial, to the point many people took 3 movies to realize the entire new trilogy was really bad.

The OP implied that every heavily criticized game, is in reality a very good one that people loves. Which is obviously not the case. People invest a lot of time being harsh at games, simply because they expected or wanted better. The money spent in a game alone can easily explain why some people feel invested in a game they don’t like, also expectations play an important role. Emotional attachment can come from a lot of different sources, and is easy to explain why people feel the need to spend time trashing on a game, without assuming that they actually love it.
 
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I'm assuming the statement was regards to always playing as an immortal leader, not just playing a civilization.
I understood that, and I suppose you could roleplay that you're playing an immortal leader if you want to--but that's not the de facto assumption of the game.
 
Multithreading.

It has been done before with success. Galciv AI calculates most of their turn during the human player's turn. Then, it only adjusts what has changed during human turn. Result: a much better, and much faster AI.
I didn't know this!! Well, that's one great way to solve that "waiting Time" Issue (especially for People who take their time to finish their turns), so that the AI would only have to calculate for the players' latest action durring its (AI) turn for things like Diplomacy (most things but not everything) and Battle, but not for City Management, Policies ...etc.
Then why don't other 4X turn based Strategy Games (Civ) use this AI System? (its a rhetorical question)

If we don't get a smart AI, then we should at least get a faster one. No just kidding, we want a fast AND smart AI.
 
I didn't know this!! Well, that's one great way to solve that "waiting Time" Issue (especially for People who take their time to finish their turns), so that the AI would only have to calculate for the players' latest action durring its (AI) turn for things like Diplomacy (most things but not everything) and Battle, but not for City Management, Policies ...etc.
Then why don't other 4X turn based Strategy Games (Civ) use this AI System? (its a rhetorical question)

If we don't get a smart AI, then we should at least get a faster one. No just kidding, we want a fast AND smart AI.

Because programming AI in multiple threads is another type of beast and requires an expanded set of skills. If they don't have the skillset necessary to create a single threaded good AI, imagine if they will be able to multithread...

Say what you want about Brad Wardell, but the man knows how to code... he is like the Soren of Galciv, only that Soren is a great guy... ;)
 
I didn't know this!! Well, that's one great way to solve that "waiting Time" Issue (especially for People who take their time to finish their turns), so that the AI would only have to calculate for the players' latest action durring its (AI) turn for things like Diplomacy (most things but not everything) and Battle, but not for City Management, Policies ...etc.
Then why don't other 4X turn based Strategy Games (Civ) use this AI System? (its a rhetorical question)

If we don't get a smart AI, then we should at least get a faster one. No just kidding, we want a fast AND smart AI.

Because programming AI in multiple threads is another type of beast and requires an expanded set of skills. If they don't have the skillset necessary to create a single threaded good AI, imagine if they will be able to multithread...

Say what you want about Brad Wardell, but the man knows how to code... he is like the Soren of Galciv, only that Soren is a great guy... ;)

Assuming that CiVI is not already runnings its AI on multiple threads (I honestly don't know):

To build on Aristos's point, multithreaded applications are not only harder to code than single-threaded, they are also harder to test and validate because their behavior is less predictable. You need more time and/or resources to properly test them, and that seems to be something that Firaxis has had trouble with recently.

Which brings me to my main point: I've increasingly come to see Firaxis, or at least Civ projects, as under resourced (not enough people, not enough time, not enough money). They have all these good ideas, but then not only do the implementations seem to peter out halfway through, new features introduce bugs that only sort of get ironed out. It seems to me that whatever wishes people might have for the franchise moving forward they're likely to be disappointed because such limitations, particularly with regards to AI. I doubt Firaxis will be able to hire a truly good AI developer anytime soon considering the enormous sums such folks are commanding on the market right now. I expect that what we currently see are what we're likely to get in the future.
 
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Running an independent subsystem (like AI calculations during player turn) on another thread is trivial. Correcting the pre-calculated AI behavior to accommodate human actions is very decidedly not trivial. I wonder how Galciv even does this.
 
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Running an independent subsystem (like AI calculations during player turn) on another thread is trivial. Correcting the pre-calculated AI behavior to accommodate human actions is very decidedly not trivial. I wonder how Galciv even does this.
I also wonder how MP is synched.
 
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I understood that, and I suppose you could roleplay that you're playing an immortal leader if you want to--but that's not the de facto assumption of the game.
I feel like this iteration they did emphasize that more though, with the alternate leader mechanic as well as giving them each different leader bonuses, does make it feel like you are roleplaying a leader as equally.
 
I understood that, and I suppose you could roleplay that you're playing an immortal leader if you want to--but that's not the de facto assumption of the game.
It''s not an assumption, it's a fact. If you choose, say, Rome, then you are Emperor Trajan for all six thousand years.
 
To build on Aristos's point, multithreaded applications are not only harder to code than single-threaded, they are also harder to test and validate because their behavior is less predictable. You need more time and/or resources to properly test them, and that seems to be something that Firaxis has had trouble with recently.

Which brings me to my main point: I've increasingly come to see Firaxis, or at least Civ projects, as under resourced (not enough people, not enough time, not enough money). They have all these good ideas, but then not only do the implementations seem to peter out halfway through, new features introduce bugs that only sort of get ironed out. It seems to me that whatever wishes people might have for the franchise moving forward they're likely to be disappointed because such limitations, particularly with regards to AI. I doubt Firaxis will be able to hire a truly good AI developer anytime soon considering the enormous sums such folks are commanding on the market right now. I expect that what we currently see are what we're likely to get in the future.
re. resources: that's obviously the case. I think it's all a matter of Priority of FXS, do they put more resources in improving AI that will make the game's (existing) experienced players and older fans of the franchise happy, or do they put more resources into making new civs and features that will make more sales with DLCs and attract new Players (more sales)? As a company, the latter would be a better choice, because FXS has enough experience in this and made sales despite not paying much attention at improving the existing game stuff (including AI and Bugfixes). So why would they put so much resources into (more) recource demanding game improvements that will barely make sales (through new players) when making new DLCs instead will require perhaps the same amount of resources but will make much more sales?
But from the Game Design's perspective, it's a VERY bad choice to choose the latter!

I don't think that because Civ6's AI isn't great, its AI programmer must be bad at what he/she is doing. It might as well be due to what you already mentioned about resources. The Civ6's AI is actually good considering the many systems/mechanisms it has to handle but somehow keeps itself being competitive (meaning working as a Civ and reaching the very late game without much setbacks), or at least between AI's and not necessarilly the human Player. But it's a lack of programming the AI to be good/great, knowing how to use the mechanisms and follow a victory type, a lack of enough Time spent for that.

FXS has always took modding into consideration while developing its Games, so the only thing I hope from them for Civ7, is not including a 3rd party into the Game that will make the DLL release of Civ7 impossible like with Civ6, if that's the reason that hold them from releasing it for Civ6 (I don't think it's because of bad spagetti coding that might place the devs in a bad view). So AI Modders could at least improve the AI for us Civ Fanatics.
 
I’ve played several games now with all expansions and modes turned off, as well as no barbarians and the AI does much better ar everything except war
 
I feel like this iteration they did emphasize that more though, with the alternate leader mechanic as well as giving them each different leader bonuses, does make it feel like you are roleplaying a leader as equally.
Which I really like. And it's a great thing that adds more variety to the game . . . if there were more alt Leaders. I hope that FXS will keep Alt Leaders and Leader Bonuses for Civ7, while adding more Alt Leaders for most Civs.
But I more so would want the Leaders to be Era based or bi-era (every two Eras), so no Alt Leaders but (bi)Era changing Leaders. considering the amount of resources needed for each Leader (if made similar to Civ6's), I doubt that will happen.
 
Which I really like. And it's a great thing that adds more variety to the game . . . if there were more alt Leaders. I hope that FXS will keep Alt Leaders and Leader Bonuses for Civ7, while adding more Alt Leaders for most Civs.
But I more so would want the Leaders to be Era based or bi-era (every two Eras), so no Alt Leaders but (bi)Era changing Leaders. considering the amount of resources needed for each Leader (if made similar to Civ6's), I doubt that will happen.

Yeah, that's the big flaws. More leaders and more options is fantastic, but leaders take lots of art resources to create, and generally speaking, people are less interested in the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th or 5th) leader for one civ vs having a new leader for a new civ. So while it would be great from a gameplay perspective to have more options for every civ, and the game is setup to support that nicely, it's not really the greatest option from a resource or marketing perspective, I think.
 
What's weird is that I bet the most alt leaders I have ever seen was Civ 4 BTS -- Civ 5 and 6 were so ready to see many, many different leaders, but only Mods seem to take advantage of that on a large scale.
 
I feel like this iteration they did emphasize that more though, with the alternate leader mechanic as well as giving them each different leader bonuses, does make it feel like you are roleplaying a leader as equally.
They emphasized it more for the civs you play against, yes, but I still feel like that has very little impact on you as the player. To be clear, I'd like to see them lean into it more in the future; I wouldn't mind seeing some hefty RPG elements in diplomacy. But as is who the leader of your civ is is pretty irrelevant. The AI doesn't react to it, and it doesn't have any real bearing on the game. If you want to roleplay as that leader you can, but there's certainly nothing in the game to make you think about the leader of your own civ while you're playing them.

It''s not an assumption, it's a fact. If you choose, say, Rome, then you are Emperor Trajan for all six thousand years.
You must spend a lot more time in your own tab of the diplomacy screen than I do then; frankly I only go there if I forget what a particularly civ ability does and I don't feel like looking it up in the Civilopedia.

Which I really like. And it's a great thing that adds more variety to the game . . . if there were more alt Leaders. I hope that FXS will keep Alt Leaders and Leader Bonuses for Civ7, while adding more Alt Leaders for most Civs.
But I more so would want the Leaders to be Era based or bi-era (every two Eras), so no Alt Leaders but (bi)Era changing Leaders. considering the amount of resources needed for each Leader (if made similar to Civ6's), I doubt that will happen.
I foresee that leading to as bad of results as the changing clothes in Civ3. Frankly I don't want nationalist nonsense like "Matthias Corvinus leads the Sumerians in the Middle Ages!" or "Saddam Hussein leads Babylon in the Modern Age!" or "Benito Juarez leads the Aztecs in the Modern Age!" :sad:
 
You must spend a lot more time in your own tab of the diplomacy screen than I do then; frankly I only go there if I forget what a particularly civ ability does and I don't feel like looking it up in the Civilopedia.
what argument is there in against being immortal leader the intro screen literally calls you a "leader"-Trajan for Rome. Kupe for Maori ect. Who did you think you are when you are playing a game?
 
They emphasized it more for the civs you play against, yes, but I still feel like that has very little impact on you as the player. To be clear, I'd like to see them lean into it more in the future; I wouldn't mind seeing some hefty RPG elements in diplomacy. But as is who the leader of your civ is is pretty irrelevant. The AI doesn't react to it, and it doesn't have any real bearing on the game. If you want to roleplay as that leader you can, but there's certainly nothing in the game to make you think about the leader of your own civ while you're playing them.
I definitely would love to see "Would you like a marriage arrangement with one of Maria Theresa's children?" as a meme in the future.

I foresee that leading to as bad of results as the changing clothes in Civ3. Frankly I don't want nationalist nonsense like "Matthias Corvinus leads the Sumerians in the Middle Ages!" or "Saddam Hussein leads Babylon in the Modern Age!" or "Benito Juarez leads the Aztecs in the Modern Age!" :sad:
The only way I see it working is if the leaders aren't specifically tied to eras. Thinking about it it would be an interesting system, similar to Humankind already switching between cultures. That way you can choose to play England and start with someone like Victoria for early naval exploration and in the Medieval Era switch to Elizabeth I for a mid-game culture push based on their abilities.

The downside is you would definitely need to make every civ have more than one leader for that mechanic to work, and for some that's difficult. :shifty:
 
dispite how many criticism I have in having Seondeok as a Korean leader... the way she is represented and having actual voice actress to voice her lines is miles better than anachronistic Wang Gun and weird and unnatural voice of Sejong the great in civ 5 ( which is so bad that when it came out it became a meme in Korea- almost the same level is nuclear Gandhi) I would have preferred if Korea had Sejong the great... but alas...

How can you like Korea that hasn't even got Turtle ships? No offence but it was really painful to see Korea without turtle ships...
 
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