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[NFP] Civ 6 World Wonder for Domination Victories Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Duke William of Normandy, Nov 15, 2020.

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  1. Mr. Salt

    Mr. Salt Warlord

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    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (27)
    Temple of Artemis (28)
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    University of Sankore (20)
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    Oxford University: The only thing worse than low Science output, which this wonder does a great deal to help with, is all those stray Great Writers strewn around your empire. I'm a military dictatorship, aren't you supposed to be censored or something? Don't you have anything better to do than block my builders? But this gets rid of one.

    Petra: Keeping desert cities around is a waste of Amenities you could be using to keep a smaller number of cities above the threshold.
     
  2. Baigan

    Baigan Chieftain

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    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (27)
    Temple of Artemis (28)
    Terracotta Army (32)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)



    Whoops, my bad. To somewhat correct this mistake...

    University of Sankore (20+1): Every domestic trade route to this city gives +2 Science and +1 Faith. With all the extra trade routes you get from conquering, this can represent an appreciable chunk of your science per turn. And, unlike Great Zimbabwe, it pairs well with Magnus' Surplus Logistics title that gives an extra +2 Food on trade routes to the target city.

    Pyramids (27-3): A spectacular wonder. But actually constructing it is much more difficult these days. In a vacuum, the Great Bath isn't bad. But it's brought down a lot due to the AI always building it early. The 'mids feel similarly difficult to contest since the patch.
     
  3. Mr. Salt

    Mr. Salt Warlord

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    Great Lighthouse (15)
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    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (29)
    Kotoku-in (18)
    Machu Picchu (22)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (21)
    Oxford University (20)
    Petra (10)
    Potala Palace (23)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (27)
    Temple of Artemis (28)
    Terracotta Army (32)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)

    Alhambra: I think that the Venetian Arsenal is sitting far too comfortably in its throne, and that it needs a competitor. I won't say which wonder I think ought to win, but it isn't that one.

    Estádio do Maracanã: Preemptive downvote to put this one below the 20 mark, get people's attention on it, and hopefully save Kotoku-in from the EnKage-shaped specter looming over it when Petra inevitably goes next. Useful bonus, but much more so for a Cultural Victory- the double whammy of a Professional Sports requirement and an adjacent Stadium isn't doing it any favors. Fittingly, Brazil has strong Culture output and builds a lot of Entertainment Complexes, and this might be useful for the Brazilians specifically when going for Domination. But we voted Chichen Itza out for such a fate.
     
  4. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Warlord

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    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (29)
    Kotoku-in (18)
    Machu Picchu (22)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (21)
    Oxford University (20)
    Petra (10)
    Potala Palace (23)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (27)
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (32)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)

    Temple of Artemis (29) - To my mind, a top-tier wonder for any playstyle and victory condition. Easy enough to build early, and lets you more or less ignore food in your capital (or major city) while still growing large enough to support multiple districts. A great way to kick-start a Pingala city while expanding with smaller cities all around.

    Great Lighthouse (12) - At this point, all of the remaining wonders have some value in a domination game. While the Great Lighthouse ostensibly does give a direct military bonus, naval combat is so bad that it really ends up being a minor exploration bonus more than anything else. With very few exceptions, most of the time my naval units are used for bombarding cities near coasts rather than open battle that would benefit from extra movement.
     
  5. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Machu Picchu (22)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (21)
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    Petra (7) I'd have to contest @Vargas1 about all the Wonders here helping with a DV. Petra, while a good Desert Wonder, is probably worse than the Panama Canal, and it's usefulness depends highly on your start rng.
    Potala Palace (23)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (28) Once again, the instant army is pretty much perfect in all shapes and forms.
    Temple of Artemis (29)
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    Baigan likes this.
  6. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Great Library -3
    As you conquer, you should have no problems with getting eurekas or science in general.
    Getting all eurekas of ancient-classical is basically impossible - AI loves it and it typically goes between turn 65-70. Part of this wonder bonus is wasted while conquering, so does not deserve staying above 20

    Terracota +1
    promotions, promotions, promotions. Last patches in opposite to GLib not liked by AI, so easy to build
     
  7. Baigan

    Baigan Chieftain

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    Kilwa Kisiwani (29+1): The benefits of Alhambra and Forbidden City are only as good as the benefit of the marginal policy card that you get to use due to building them. Individual games vary, but on average, Kilwa's +15% to all applicable yields empire-wide is better than the benefit of the marginal policy card. Kilwa should be higher than Forbidden City and Alhambra.

    Machu Picchu (22-3): I'll admit that I've never built this, mostly because the AI likes rushing it. I see how it could be useful on specific maps, but IZ and TS both having reliable adjacency options now reduces the appeal of constructing this, assuming the AI doesn't beat you to it. There are probably better things to do in the mid-game.
     
  8. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

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    I tend not to do elimination thread anymore cuz the new ones are getting so specific that most of the time mental gymnastics has to be used to compare two completely unrelated things to point how one thing is slightly more relevant than others, but this comment is hard to ignore. Just for background, in the overall Wonder elimination thread after GS, Kotoku-in finished 43 out of 49. Warrior Monk is a useless unit, it was added even before Rise and Fall, everyone knows that. It is terrible for its era cuz due to the flow of science vs culture, the prerequisites and their respective boost conditions, it is impossible to unlock Theology before Iron Working. There is no way to boost experience gained by a Warrior Monk, while melee units can do their fighting since Ancient Era, have tons of bonuses and buildings to boost their exp gained, their first promotion level (the easiest one to reach) directly promotes fighting. A unit that is terrible during its era but somehow can become very strong eras later, without any change to the unit itself, like... what? And somehow you just believe that any Warrior Monk coming out of the door will get a ton of promotions like that out of nowhere, where the biggest challenge of the unit is to gain XP? It is like saying I'm gonna mass build all of these Scouts because they are strong when they inevitably get Ambush!
    And please, how much Faith per turn are you gonna get out of this Wonder in Medieval, because it is tough even for Ethiopia or Russia to reach 100 Faith per turn in their strongest city in Medieval just to get 20 Faith per turn out of this Wonder. And there is the audacity at the end questioning why a top 4 generalist Wonder which can help with every path like the Oracle is stronger...
    I literally cannot believe what I'm reading and how everyone just lets this line of pseudologic slide uncontested.

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    Kmart_Elvis, kaspergm, enKage and 2 others like this.
  9. Mr. Salt

    Mr. Salt Warlord

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    Man alive. All right...

    Warrior Monks aren't Okihtcitaws. You don't need some kind of crazy Terracotta Army strategy to make them good, although it doesn't hurt, as evidenced by its current tie for second place. When I'm going for Domination, I usually find myself with a number of Promotion tiers on all my units without having to specifically baby any; if your experience is different, that's the way it is. With that in mind, let us suppose that my experience is a major outlier. If that was true, then my opinion on this wonder would be affected by something that doesn't reflect the majority experience, and I shouldn't vote on it. So I'll leave it to everyone else now to decide its fate.

    Regarding the Oracle, though, in keeping with @Baigan's recent posts, I find it completely unmanageable to build before the AI on Immortal up. They are idiots who will rush Mysticism to get a religion out, and it's still early enough in the game that any Production boost you have is almost totally negligible. To be honest, I don't find it terribly strong either. Its problem is similar to that of the Taj Mahal; conquest means that you'll be drowning in Great People points from all the captured districts, so a maximum of 18 more, 8 of those being for totally useless Great People, doesn't seem all that consequential. Even early on, what you're fishing for are Great Generals and Admirals and Al-Zahrawi, who is easy to snipe from the AI anyway if you're building enough Campuses.

    Since I've got everything up here today, I'll upvote Kilwa Kisiwani, a far superior generalist wonder. Unless your strategy involves absorbing city-states, which it usually should not, obtaining this wonder will be a magnificent boon to your yields empire-wide, as when enemies are eliminated, their Suzerainties disappear and are easy to steal for yourself.

    Moderator Action: Comment removed. Please do not get personal as it is trolling. leif

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2021
  10. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Warlord

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    Petra (8) - It seems I'm fighting an uphill battle here, so will bow out gracefully after this one, but if you all have not had to settle desert cities for strategic resources in domination games, then you've had better luck than I. I almost always need to settle at least one desert city (for iron, niter, oil), and Petra is often still available even when oil comes about. Or earlier in the game, when you have one iron in your whole early empire but there's a desert location with 3 irons sitting in the first ring (if that seems oddly specific, it's because it happened last week). Petra - which is not competitive and not tough to build with a single charge from a wonder engineer - can make that one-track city into something quite valuable for the rest of the game.

    Machu Picchu (16) - This can be fun when you capture it, since it opens up some new possibilities for city placement, but the overall effects are marginal compared to how heavily it is prioritized by the AI. There are almost always better uses for your production at that point of the game.

    On the discussion above:
    I've never used warrior monks in any meaningful way, so my view is not based on experience, but I think the main issue is not that they can't get promoted, but the with timing of their promotions. Yes, in a domination game you typically will get a lot of promotions for your units, but for many (if not most) of your units, that's because you've been using them since the early stages of the game (warriors=>swordsmen=>musketmen etc.). With Kotoku-in, you're getting 4 brand new units with no promotions. So over time, yes, warrior monks can outclass swordsmen, but from the beginning you're likely fighting an uphill battle against swordsmen (or even more advanced units) who may have been around for a while. Plus, since they can't be promoted, once other units are promoted they basically lose their military effectiveness unless you've managed to get them all the way promoted. Otherwise you're basically building a wonder to get you 4 reasonably effective scouts.

    Regarding Oracle, it's really more than just 18 additional GPP per turn, since you almost certainly will stick Pingala with Grants in your Oracle city so everything gets doubled. Getting an extra 4 GPP per turn for the main areas is pretty helpful into the mid-game. Honestly though, the discount to faith purchasing may be just as impactful. Given how useful faith is for a variety of reasons, most games I will build up a fairly strong faith economy. Getting that discount can push you over the hump for the really key Great Scientists, or can let you buy outright people like early wonder GEs, etc. More than once I've bought Imhotep outright before even having an industrial zone, and using him to effectively build Mausoleum, Petra, and the Colosseum is pretty useful.
     
  11. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Petra (5) Apologies, @Vargas1, but I must make sure this Wonder leaves. Civ 6 spawn RNG is not that favorable to Panama Canal's, and settling a Desert City just makes it harder to provide Amenities for those Citizens.
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    Terracotta Army (34) One of the top contenders for the top 5 World Wonders for Domination, change my mind, you can't.
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  12. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

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    Moderator Action: Comment removed. If you have an issue with something personal that someone posts, please report the post. Responding to trolling is still trolling. leif

    The fact it is currently tied for second place or not doesn't matter, because the sample pool of opinions in this thread is incredibly low, almost 2 months have passed and not even half the wonders are gone, because compared to other elimination threads, no one is playing this one.
    Do you happen to have a save file where you have Warrior Monks a core of your army for Domination? Really love to see that. Everyone's opinion should be listened to, if it makes sense. You cannot just assume you will guarantee to earn those promotions on a unit that is not that great at fighting, just like you can assume you will guarantee earning Ambush on a Scout. Warrior Monks already fight an uphill battle when Theology is unlocked because melee units can earn promotions faster (due to Encampment buildings) and earn XP earlier from fighting, their 1st promotion even promotes fighting. So please tell me, how can Warrior Monks survive in late Medieval when this Wonder is unlocked, and I already give you a huge assumption that you have a good culture output and beeline for this Wonder. Again, if you have a save file around, would love to see it. Almost 3k hours in-game, very active on these forums, reddit, facebook, never once see that "useful Monk strat" reported, so I'm not sure if that story comes from your actual experience or it is just you backpedalling after getting called out for huge logical gaps saying that "this is just my personal experience". Again, super interested in seeing save file where Monks play the core role in an army.
    You can't build Oracle from Immortal up but you can build Kotoku-in? The AI beelines for religious wonders so much harder, which is one of the reasons it finished 43 out of 49 in the general Wonder elimination game. Since when you need Mysticism to get out a Religion? Only 2 civs that can use the Revelation card before researching Political Philosophy.
    Btw, do you know why Ruhr Valley and Oxford University is so much better than Kotoku-in, setting aside the "values" of the yields they give? Because there are infinite ways to buff up the production and science output of one city, so the 20% of these two wonders scale almost indefinitely into late game. Regarding Faith, not the same. Beside Ethiopia, every civ relies on terrain, pantheon, Holy Site placement and its buildings, and 2 policy cards to generate Faith at city levels, so what you get in Medieval Era from Kotoku-in is the same as what you get in Information Era from it. Since Faith is pretty much capped at city level, you get Faith by going wide, which is the point of Domination. Somehow you think spending 710 Production on this thing to get 10-15 Faith per turn is ok, but the Oracle isn't, because you'll get Great People anyway. Well, you get infinitely more Faith from conquering as well. Don't think you have ever had a consideration how much 20% Faith in one city means in terms of number and the overall landscape of the game.
    The two reasons I spent time on an elimination thread that hardly anyone bothers playing is 1. your argument and "logic" are egregiously flawed, but that is not the main issue cuz that happens all the time, and 2. you took it upon yourself to attempt to nullify others' votes and opinions, even condescendingly explain "tHe LaW oF eQUivAlenT eXchaNgE", when you yourself think 710 Production (roughly 4 Crossbow) is good to exchange for 10 Faith per turn and 4 useless units that can't fight, so I think it is time you be brought back to the ground a little bit on how much you actually understand the game compared to everyone else.
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    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2021
  13. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Alhambra (34) (33 + 1) Alhambra is pretty good for domination! Feels like it should definitely be competitive.

    Petra (2) (5 - 3) Gotta say, as nice as a big Petra city can get, doing so tends to require a lot of production through trade routes, which is a pretty big commitment, and a Petra city isn't particularly helpful for domination. When it comes to a desert specific wonder, Pyramids and Jebel Barkal are arguably more useful towards domination.

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  14. Baigan

    Baigan Chieftain

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    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (32)
    Kotoku-in (12)
    Machu Picchu (16)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (19)
    Oxford University (20)
    Potala Palace (23)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (28)
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (34)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)

    Colosseum (28+1): With recent patches this has become something of a poor man's Kilwa. Moving up a happiness tier in your cities isn't guaranteed (0-2 is Content), but neither is having 2+ CS of your desired yield. It's not empire-wide, but you're likely boosting the most productive cities at the heart of your empire. And, unlike Kilwa, this helps mitigate the effect of war weariness.

    Petra (2-3) ELIMINATED: Pleased to hammer this nail myself. Settling desert just to build Petra is misguided.

    I'm not keen on Kotoku-in, but the thing that made Warrior Monks unviable was always the AI's obsession with taking that belief. Classical era Warrior Monks are perfectly fine in combat, and rushing Theology isn't difficult. In a recent game with Shaka I chose the Warrior Monk belief as a meme but ended up with several Monks that carried. Kotoku-in at least has synergy with Shaka's early Corps.

    EDIT: Not sure if I'm uploading this correctly. It's base game with all DLC, no mods. I misremembered—it was Basil, not Shaka. Still, there's a 4-promotion Warrior Monk corps advancing on the other continent. Looking through earlier saves, it was also in the attack force (already with a promotion) that was moving to conquer my first civ on turn 88. Sure, by turn 162 it was nearing the end of its usefulness, but it was still relevant more than 80 turns after its creation. How many other units can say the same?
     

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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  15. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
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    Łódź, PL
    Sure. Monks are not Okihtcitaws. You cannot have 2-3 warrior monks pre-swordsen at needed leel, while you can reliably can have 2-3 lvl3 Okihs just by training them on a city state with an absurd quest using +100% experience card.
    And that even does not compare to Inca exping their Warak'aq to level 3, real kings of reckons.
    So...
    Kotoku -3
    The only use of monks is Shaka, but Shaka still has better cards to play.

    Potala Palace +1
    That 1 green slot perfectly fits 50% to spies, when you need to train them quickly to get +6 strength

    Alhambra (34)
    Apadana (21)
    Big Ben (28)
    Casa de Contratación (29)
    Colosseum (29)
    Estádio do Maracanã (19)
    Forbidden City (30)
    Great Library (20)
    Great Lighthouse (12)
    Great Zimbabwe (20)
    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (32)
    Kotoku-in (9)
    Machu Picchu (16)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (19)
    Oxford University (20)
    Potala Palace (24)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (28)
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (34)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  16. Mr. Salt

    Mr. Salt Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2020
    Messages:
    102
    Location:
    CT
    Alhambra (34)
    Apadana (21)
    Big Ben (28)
    Casa de Contratación (29)
    Colosseum (29)
    Estádio do Maracanã (16)
    Forbidden City (30)
    Great Library (20)
    Great Lighthouse (12)
    Great Zimbabwe (20)
    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (32)
    Kotoku-in (9)
    Machu Picchu (16)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (19)
    Oxford University (20)
    Potala Palace (24)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (29)
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (34)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)

    Statue of Zeus: A wonder that has only existed for months, and it shows in its tuning for AI priority. I'll often notice this going eras later out of the corner of my eye when going for a Science or Culture Victory. Its bonus is usually at least somewhat useful now that the anti-cav matchup isn't so utterly one-sided against melee units. The instant rush it provides is hit-or-miss, but when it does work it's hard to deal with.

    Estádio do Maracanã: A great bonus (a toned-down version of which should be on Angkor Wat, damn it) unfortunately arriving far too late to be useful in most circumstances. Why would you have a fully upgraded Entertainment Complex in the heartland of your empire, where you're likely building most of your wonders that don't only apply to a small area, in the Atomic Era in a Domination game?

    Moderator Action: Personal comments removed. Please stop and get back on topic. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2021
  17. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Warlord

    Joined:
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    Alhambra (34)
    Apadana (21)
    Big Ben (28)
    Casa de Contratación (29)
    Colosseum (29)
    Estádio do Maracanã (16)
    Forbidden City (31)
    Great Library (20)
    Great Lighthouse (9)
    Great Zimbabwe (20)
    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (32)
    Kotoku-in (9)
    Machu Picchu (16)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (19)
    Oxford University (20)
    Potala Palace (24)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (29)
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (34)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)

    Forbidden City (31) - The more I think about this topic, the more it seems to me that the overall good wonders are more useful for domination than the domination-specific wonders. In an alternative world where the AI was competent at naval warfare, Venetian Arsenal would be the clear top choice - 2 for 1 units is super powerful. Unfortunately, in this world you rarely need all that many naval units in order to rule the seas. Statue of Zeus can be useful, but I think typically ends up being built after the units are nearing obsolescence (though for civs that want to continue building anti-cav - namely Shaka and Kristina - it's a good wonder). Terracotta's promotions can be helpful, but you have to time it perfectly for them to have a really major impact. Otherwise you just end up getting promotions you probably would have gotten anyway. And Alhambra gives a policy slot, which is good, and amenities and GG points, which are also good. But the benefit of those latter two items is fairly modest.
    All that being said, in my view an extra wildcard slot (and +5 culture at a time that still matters) brings more value to a domination game than any of those other wonders.

    Great Lighthouse (9) - The benefit this wonder gives is simply less than the others remaining, particularly in light of the reality of naval warfare.
     
  18. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Alhambra (34)
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    Casa de Contratación (29)
    Colosseum (29)
    Estádio do Maracanã (16)
    Forbidden City (31)
    Great Library (20)
    Great Lighthouse (6) Two more people to, Mortal Kombat Voice, finish him. Honestly, there are far better Naval Wonders than the Great Lighthouse you could build. Venetian Arsenal simps know what I mean by that.
    Great Zimbabwe (20)
    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (32)
    Kotoku-in (9)
    Machu Picchu (16)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (19)
    Oxford University (20)
    Potala Palace (24)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (30) Once again, if you can build this before you build the Terracotta Army, hoo boy, you will be unstoppable. :D
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (34)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)
     
  19. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  20. IsabelBraganca

    IsabelBraganca Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Brazil
    Alhambra (34)
    Apadana (21)
    Big Ben (29) The extra economic slot and the gold is really useful.
    Casa de Contratación (29)
    Colosseum (29)
    Estádio do Maracanã (16)
    Forbidden City (31)
    Great Library (20)
    Great Lighthouse (3) Naval warfare is almost pointless...
    Great Zimbabwe (20)
    Huey Teocalli (18)
    Jebel Barkal (28)
    Kilwa Kisiwani (32)
    Kotoku-in (9)
    Machu Picchu (16)
    Mausoleum at Halicarnassus (23)
    Oracle (19)
    Oxford University (20)
    Potala Palace (24)
    Pyramids (24)
    Ruhr Valley (23)
    Statue of Zeus (30)
    Temple of Artemis (29)
    Terracotta Army (34)
    University of Sankore (21)
    Venetian Arsenal (35)
     
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