Civ 7's Victory Paths can Use Some Work to Feel Less Western Specific

sTAPler27

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Economic Path:
-The Antiquity and Modern age version of these paths aren't bad but the Exploration could use some work. So far we only know of 4 treasure resources and they seem to be the same each game, they're things like spices and cocoa things sought primarily as they were either not in the "old world" or because they weren't plentiful in Europe specifcally. To alleviate this 7 should embrace part of 6's luxury system in which certain continents have specific resources. Any resource not on your home continent would be a "treasure resource". There would be no one continent to plunder as all have things the others want.

I'm not sure if you can engage in this victory without colonization but if not you should be able to generate Treasure Fleets from using Merchants to establish trade with Distant Land Civs. You'd still be able to engage with the piracy mechanics while not needing to engage in colonialism. And most importantly it would fit with the objectives of the other ages better as this objective feels more fitting for a Militarist path.

Military Path:
-In the Exploration age only Mongolia can gain Military Legacy points from non Distant Land conquests which while I appreciate that touch, should be extended to even more Civs and have Distant Lands conquests simply grant more points. I really don't find this path as agregious because a Military Path is quite simple and mobilizing a military across an ocean is a pretty universal feat that reflects the path well, I just don't think it should be the sole gauge of success.

Culture Path:
-Arguably the path that exemplifies this the most. Religion as a fleshed out mechanic is locked until 400 CE, which makes sense for Christianity and Islam but not really for most other religions hich were organized prior to this point. This alongside the fact that there are 3 different sects of Christianity as their own religion while no other religion is divided this way, not to mention there is only "old world" religions that are formable.

Religion in general seems to focus on prosthelytizing-monotheistic religions. A Culture Path centered around a Religion Mechanic could therefor focus on creating a Religion that represents your Cultural Values. For example a Science Oriented Civ could found a religion that was more philisophical than spiritual that grants Science based on Followers within your own Settlements. Religions are really different from one another in our own world so why make the gameplay around them so uniform?

-And in the final age while you can grab artifacts within your own territory given that artifacts are the only criteria that grant points you'll more than likely be encouraged to scoop up other players' historical artifacts as its the only way to aquire points. In 6 tourism was the focus, with artifacts being a fun way of aquiring tourism for players who might've not been quick to building wonders, comissioning artists or have the most appealing territory.

Science Path:
-The most thematically fitting and most widly applicable path all things considered, with most things feeling very much applicable to the entire world, most civilzations that prioritized science kept recorded records of their achievements, engaged in skillful urban planning and at some point participated in the pursuit of the stars. You could argue that the idea of a Space Race is rooted in western Ideological warfare but I think even in a world where that wasn't the case space would still be on the minds of scientists given how prevalent astronomy is to many cultures that didn't even have contact between one another.
 
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Would you prefer and adjustment to the current victory paths, or new victory paths added? My impression is adding new victory types will be much easier in 7 than before.
I think for the most part the Ancient and Modern Victory paths are fine. The Economic route I would tie more to gold production though, as in you should have to pay to maintain trade routes so you actually need to have a well balanced economy to be on the Economic Legacy Path, because currently you can win this victory through conquest alone. Science Route is honestly solid through in through because I feel like the objectives are linked to your Science Output, same goes for Military its just that Military is a bit limiting in the Exploration. Culture just needs more options in general because being forced to spread a religion and rely on archaeology is incredibly limiting as its just the tediousness of moving units in a Military Victory minus any of the strategy.
 
Exploration
Economic and Military both need some revising

1. Distant Lands/Homeland need to be Relative terms (except for in map setup where the “Crowded Homeland” is different)
While it will be harder to colonize a crowded continent, it has lots of settlements to capture. (double points for Military)

For Economic that just means unique Treasure Resources on both sides

2. The other option then is being able to get Treasure Fleet points without colonizing the distant lands. I would suggest if a Distant Lands civ sends a Trade Route to one of your settlements with Treasure resources, that Settlement will start generating a Treasure fleet that you need to send to the other Land… of that civ. Then you Both get a point and gold.
 
I agree with you that the culture path in the exploration age is the most egregious example. While they are explaining this by saying that religions that formed before such a time started reaching its height at the era the so called exploration age took place in, it seems more like a justification for gameplay more than anything.

To me, it's the hallmark of modern occidental beliefs that there must be a dominant culture and beliefs. Syncretism is numerous throughout human history and still is something that continues to this day.

Ironically, despite what I have just said I do like pursuing cultural victories in games. At the end of the day, it's a very fun and novel playstyle; the concept of conquering not by war but by winning over people's hearts.

It's too late to make changes but I hope that there's some form of syncretism belief that you can take. Maybe as a boon for your religion, something you can unlock in the cultural tree, a leader/civ ability, or something else.

Regardless, I do want to play the game first before commiting to the suggestion of such ideas hah. For all I know, something like that might already exist in the game. Besides it's not the end of the world; the excuse they gave is serviceable. Could things be better? Of course. But nothing's ever perfect right? haha
 
To me, it's the hallmark of modern occidental beliefs that there must be a dominant culture and beliefs. Syncretism is numerous throughout human history and still is something that continues to this day.
How would this be represented through gameplay. Not too long ago I made a concept for the Metis people where I tried to represent their mix of Native American and French ancestry to the best of my abilities and it was a bit difficult with Civ 7 mechanics.
 
How would this be represented through gameplay. Not too long ago I made a concept for the Metis people where I tried to represent their mix of Native American and French ancestry to the best of my abilities and it was a bit difficult with Civ 7 mechanics.
This might be controversial but maybe independent powers could be used to represent this. I spotted in one of the streams that an independent power was listed as "Big Lumber" or something.

If they aren't just restricted to tribes, it could really open up things up. For example, if I was playing as the Mauryans and Greece was my neighbor there could be an event that creates a Greco-Buddhist independent power.

One of the really cool things I like about Civ 7 is there's a lot more to do and gain from independent powers. Using my previous example, you could either help develop it or attempt to squash it out.

If you help develop it, maybe you can assimulate it and have its beliefs be the norm for your empire. Since Civ 7 is a lot more open to penalties for your empire too, there could be a lot more options and nuance to play around with.

For example, as America you could have the luddite movement and while it remains you gain a malus to science. You can attempt to remove this power or assimulate it, taking in that penalty but giving a bonus to happiness for example.

The system has a lot of potential and I hope Firaxis do make good use of this. It's one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to for Civ 7.
 
If you help develop it, maybe you can assimulate it and have its beliefs be the norm for your empire. Since Civ 7 is a lot more open to penalties for your empire too, there could be a lot more options and nuance to play around with.
This was how I was hoping the system worked, it was make the distinction between diplomatically and militaristically annexing a IP more substantial, because currently militarism is the way to go.
 
This was how I was hoping the system worked, it was make the distinction between diplomatically and militaristically annexing a IP more substantial, because currently militarism is the way to go.
Aye. Well then, the only thing we can do right now is to wait and see! haha
 
I do think it would be nice if more civs had some unique paths. Agreed that the military path for Mongolia should maybe be open to all, but just give Mongolia an extra bonus to that (ie. if you doubled all the points from that VC, and gave other civs 1 per homeland city captured and Mongolia 2 per).

It will be curious to see how the VCs change over time to re-balance. I wouldn't mind seeing more of the options have alternate routes to them. Like as much fun as "build wonders" is as a path, I wouldn't mind if it had a second possible option, and you could balance between the two. Say for sake of argument it was "12 Points required - 1 for each wonder you control and 1 for each natural wonder tile in your territory" (it wouldn't actually be that, would certainly be something more cultural). Then a wonder-building civ might have like 8 wonders and only need 4 settled tiles, but an expansionist civ might only go for 4 wonders but would settle more lands.
 
The Exploration Age Cultural Legacy Path is the *least* Western and most obvious overture to Eastern audiences, both mechanically and descriptively.

The name is obviously of Far Eastern origin. Firaxis could have called it something like “Reliquary” or “Grail Quest” to emphasize the Great Works, or “Evangelism”, “Great Commission”, or “Proselytization” to emphasize the importance of spreading Religion. Instead, they went with an Eastern term.

Moreover, while relics were common and prominent in the Middle Ages, they’ve never had a place of centrality in Christianity; they’re very much on the periphery. Apart from proselytization, if Firaxis wanted a more Western approach, they might’ve emphasized Religion’s moral or theological dimensions over the ritualistic dimensions implied by Relics.

You could have scored points by applying the moral tenets of your Religion. Choose Pacifism? Gain points through Diplomatic Endeavors while not at War. Choose Crusades instead? Gain points for capturing cities of different Religions.

Or they could have had a system called “Corpus Doctrinae” or “Scholasticism” where you scored points by completing the theological tenets of your Religion (basically by completing a branching theological tech tree where you’re deciding which of two tenets is orthodox versus heterodox on a number of different issues).

I personally think that either or both of these ideas would have been more interesting than Relics, and I’m hoping that Religion is greatly reworked and improved on in one of the major Expansion Packs.
 
Say for sake of argument it was "12 Points required - 1 for each wonder you control and 1 for each natural wonder tile in your territory" (it wouldn't actually be that, would certainly be something more cultural).
It's probably already how it works under the hood. Those Legacy path are really just points accumulated through various means so it should be pretty easy to code (or maybe even mod) more ways to acquire those points.

I think some of those victories would benefit from a rework, especially those from the exploration age whose focus on the Distant Land is borderline silly. Some of the AIs can't even score points for the economic path due to them being in those "Distant Lands". Also Religion doesn't make much sense, there's little to no point keeping your cities following your own religion except, for the Military (🙄) victory, and then again only in the DL! Proselytizing foreign countries was of course a thing, but religions first attempted to keep a firm grasp on their own followers before sending missionaries.
 
I do think it would be nice if more civs had some unique paths. Agreed that the military path for Mongolia should maybe be open to all, but just give Mongolia an extra bonus to that (ie. if you doubled all the points from that VC, and gave other civs 1 per homeland city captured and Mongolia 2 per).

It will be curious to see how the VCs change over time to re-balance. I wouldn't mind seeing more of the options have alternate routes to them. Like as much fun as "build wonders" is as a path, I wouldn't mind if it had a second possible option, and you could balance between the two. Say for sake of argument it was "12 Points required - 1 for each wonder you control and 1 for each natural wonder tile in your territory" (it wouldn't actually be that, would certainly be something more cultural). Then a wonder-building civ might have like 8 wonders and only need 4 settled tiles, but an expansionist civ might only go for 4 wonders but would settle more lands.
I wholeheartedly agree with the second point and wholeheartedly disagree with the first.

We especially need more varied ways of accruing Cultural points. I’m hoping Great Works make a comeback and contribute to such across all Ages. They could even be an alternative to Relics. Apart from the Shroud of Turin or the Spear of Longinus, are there any relics as prominent in the minds of believers as Dante’s Divine Comedy, Michelangelo’s Creation of Adam, or John Newton’s Amazing Grace?

As far as Mongolia’s unique way of accruing points, however, I very much want more civs with similar mechanics. It’s too easy to find an optimal strategy and get in a rut of always doing the same thing. Asymmetric gameplay design adds variety and replayability
 
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The Exploration Age Cultural Legacy Path is the *least* Western and most obvious overture to Eastern audiences, both mechanically and descriptively.

The name is obviously of Far Eastern origin. Firaxis could have called it something like “Reliquary” or “Grail Quest” to emphasize the Great Works, or “Evangelism”, “Great Commission”, or “Proselytization” to emphasize the importance of spreading Religion. Instead, they went with an Eastern term.

Moreover, while relics were common and prominent in the Middle Ages, they’ve never had a place of centrality in Christianity; they’re very much on the periphery. Apart from proselytization, if Firaxis wanted a more Western approach, they might’ve emphasized Religion’s moral or theological dimensions over the ritualistic dimensions implied by Relics.

You could have scored points by applying the moral tenets of your Religion. Choose Pacifism? Gain points through Diplomatic Endeavors while not at War. Choose Crusades instead? Gain points for capturing cities of different Religions.

Or they could have had a system called “Corpus Doctrinae” or “Scholasticism” where you scored points by completing the theological tenets of your Religion (basically by completing a branching theological tech tree where you’re deciding which of two tenets is orthodox versus heterodox on a number of different issues).

I personally think that either or both of these ideas would have been more interesting than Relics, and I’m hoping that Religion is greatly reworked and improved on in one of the major Expansion Packs.
That's a fair counter argument. I concede to the notion that there is a prominent Asian flavor to the cultural path in the exploration age; I myself have been praising Civ 7's greater focus on Asian themes. I think though that the problem to me isn't the flavor but rather how it functions gameplay wise.

I do disagree though that taking more of a moral approach would be more of an occidental viewpoint. But I don't want to open that can of worms regarding what is considered "western" and what is considered "eastern".

Regardless. Despite our disagreements I'm all in for an expansion to religion haha. I highly agree with what you said about the cultural victory in this era not being tied to relics, there could be a lot more interesting paths to take. I guess we'll see in due time what expansions they're going to release. People have been hyping up a fourth digital age but personally I would prefer more meat to the current ages.
 
While we are at it, can this western game about imperialism stop being about imperialism.

Seriously though, welcome inclusion but is there a historical neutral? Particularly in a game literally built around imperialism. All aren’t equal in conquest and history, it’s hard built into the game.
Huh? The game is not called "Imperialism" (or Europa Universalis). It's called Civilization. Nothing inherently Western about it.

That said, the religious game in Exploration age is not inherently Western either. There were Eastern religions being actively proselytized during European medieval times as well, like Buddhism in Japan and (Neo-)Confucianism in China.
 
I'm just not sure how the culture victories really have anything to do with culture, the resource - I am very happy that the culture victory has to do with actual cultural accomplishments though. I was working on designing a civ in antiquity and wanted it to be heavily themed around culture until I realised that none of these buffs would actually help the era's victory condition (build wonders). It's a pretty variable series of paths that first demands production for wonders, then focuses on conversions (all reliquary beliefs demand city conversions), then exploring for artifacts. Am I missing something here? Improving your ability to research civics isn't that powerful for these paths, is it?
 
I'm just not sure how the culture victories really have anything to do with culture, the resource - I am very happy that the culture victory has to do with actual cultural accomplishments though. I was working on designing a civ in antiquity and wanted it to be heavily themed around culture until I realised that none of these buffs would actually help the era's victory condition (build wonders). It's a pretty variable series of paths that first demands production for wonders, then focuses on conversions (all reliquary beliefs demand city conversions), then exploring for artifacts. Am I missing something here? Improving your ability to research civics isn't that powerful for these paths, is it?
The cultural victories are obtained by seeking Sources of culture (Wonders/Relics/Artifacts) all provide culture.
Other Bonuses to culture output help any victory by getting you civics.
 
Ideas I had for new victory types:

Art Victory
Goal: A victory that's not influenced by Domination
Points gained for creating Art
Ancient and Exploration would have a Legacy Path where you try to develop a 'Art Style'
Modern Victory Path
Create Art of all the style(s) in the world
Display of your own Art
Double for the display of Art you created by other civilizations
Bonus Points for your display of Antiquities of your civ
Double Bonus points for other civ's Display of Antiquities of your civ
Bonus Points for your display of Codexes of your civ
Double Bonus points for other civ's Display of Codexes of your civ

Tourism Victory
(Basically Civ 6 Tourism Victory but with Civ 7 style points)
Conquer away and display your trophies.
 
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