Civ audience is a defector from consoles !

[Naokaukodem]

Not sure how to name this thread, let's vote for something soliciting, and here we go…

I think they should have added some bold and exciting new elements to the formula in order to renew the interest for the franchise.

So far, I think that Civ7 is liberal but still too much conservative in a way it does nothing crazy, everything is dull and boring, the changes are real but not in the good direction or fun. (no more citizens management, confusing towns specialization & connections, useless resources therefore useless trade, no more workers or builders - workers should definitely come back unless there's some new focus on cities or citizens -, etc.)

If anything, I think they should have added things from action games maybe, to underline the joy of a war for example. I remember how the sounds were thrilling back in Civ2, that gave the game some personality, humor and some joy, even though it was probably not intended (they were just following the trend of Windows 95 games. Now that can seem like outdated, but that just illustrates quite well how to put back some joy into the franchise, vaguely speaking in the realm of ideas and feelings). (I mean this example is just an illustration, not to take literally)

Civ audience is actually, or if it's not could have been, a defector from consoles, fan of a lot of types of games including action ones (easy-to-understand). And they know it ! Alas, I have a feeling they missed out on this one. No, Civ7 is not easy to understand, no, wars aren't fun, no, generals are not a good idea in any way, shape or form. (especially when you toy with their core concepts in the promotion tree, like being or not being able to use the units straight off the bat once deployed, or being able or not to carry 2 more units, which seems the core minimum but is hidden behind at least 2 promotions, not talking about the random deployment that usually puts ranged units in the front, nor the ridiculous effects range that is yet more ridiculous when you know that attacking a unit out of this range with a unit inside of this range doesn't provide any experience or effect, which make the whole thing VERY limited)

Don't get me wrong, I do not suggest to implement action-based features that would require some action-based skills, but maybe make the whole feel more like an Arcade game, in its actions, its possibilities, its features. It's already the case, I'm thinking about treasure fleets that just appear and just have to be sent back home, except they are poorly explained if not at all : you don't know how often they spawn, nor where. (inland distant lands cities seem not able to produce any, even if they have a connection with a coastal city. That's just poor and disappointing - even more than they are as is)

 

[MutilationWave]

I think you're the first person I've read that truly hates the commanders. They're my favorite thing about 7. You're not letting them auto-deploy are you? You can do some really wild tactics with them.

Now I can partially agree where they went wrong- the promotions. Every commander I take gets initiative then maneuverability. After that they either get carrying capacity or combat strength. First commendation, +5 CS every time. If the increased radius also increased experience gain radius I would consider that instead. You are correct the current way is not good. If the attack started in their radius but ended out of it, they should get the experience. Also I think it's a real shame that they lose all movement on entering ZOC. I realize they had to nerf them a little because they're so crazy powerful, but this choice feels bad to play.

 

[reddishrecue]

I kind of feel this way too in a way. I saw that in civ 6, there would be a lot of surprises if that makes sense. What I mean by surprises for example is that the games I would play wouldn't be so the same. I guess it's a good foundation to keep games the same but there would be stuff that would pop out as I took a turn. For example, I had the AI nuking me in a pretty low difficulty, that was surprising. I lost most of my capital and to my luck, my space city wasn't nuked. Not only this, but there were also other factors that I could remember such as rebellion from rock star culture. I guess this happens because I didn't understand all the mechanics. It's just that it feels kind of lonely when coming through these surprises too. I figured I liked to take turns after everyone would quit in multiplayer and end up in single player but now, I can't do that since the ages won't let me continue to the modern on multiplayer. I even made it to modern in multiplayer with other players online where I wasn't the best, but it was very worth entertained 4-5 hours long games online with a few players. I'm sorry but now I just can't do that anymore because of the new transitional fails.

 

[Naokaukodem]

You're not letting them auto-deploy are you?

What do you mean ? I deploy units with the "unpack" icon. Is there another way to deploy units ?

I realize they had to nerf them a little because they're so crazy powerful

I have difficulty to understand how a unit that just packs troops for them to be unpacked at the end, with a risk of being intercepted, can be powerful. Even more when their power bonus are... strange. (example : +2 CS for infantry - the most useless type of units - or +2 CS for ranged - fair but limited in all ways) It's better to move units the old way at this rate, I have a feeling that people improve generals just for the sake of it.

 

[MutilationWave]

What do you mean ? I deploy units with the "unpack" icon. Is there another way to deploy units ?

I have difficulty to understand how a unit that just packs troops for them to be unpacked at the end, with a risk of being intercepted, can be powerful. Even more when their power bonus are... strange. (example : +2 CS for infantry - the most useless type of units - or +2 CS for ranged - fair but limited in all ways) It's better to move units the old way at this rate, I have a feeling that people improve generals just for the sake of it.

I don't have time to get into the specifics of tactics but you should click each unit in the commander's "inventory" then there is a unpack icon next to their portrait. Then you select which hex to unpack that specific unit to. Never use the unpack all button.

Just one general tip, let's say you need to attack a unit on the other side of some rough terrain with cavalry. Come up to commander, pack, unpack on top of rough terrain. You have used 1 movement to move two hexes and are unaffected by the terrain because your unit is effectively starting it's turn on that rough tile. You can do similar things to move units across a navigable river with no movement penalty.

It's all about how you individually pack and unpack individual units, sometimes more than once per turn, to make the battle optimal for your attack and defense. Always take the initiative promotion first so you can do things like this.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Well so basically it is abusing the system, because I never realized that I could pack and unpack during the same turn myself. (or maybe I tried but it didn't work, PS5)

 

[MutilationWave]

Well so basically it is abusing the system, because I never realized that I could pack and unpack during the same turn myself. (or maybe I tried but it didn't work, PS5)

They designed them knowing very well what they can do. Ever have trouble getting siege units in position? Commander. Want to focus down a unit with ranged fire? Commander. Can't fire where you wanted because of vegetated tile or move where you want? Commander. If you think I'm exploiting the game playing like this I gotta say you're not exploiting it enough. Army commander is the best unit in the game.

 

[queenpea]

They designed them knowing very well what they can do. Ever have trouble getting siege units in position? Commander. Want to focus down a unit with ranged fire? Commander. Can't fire where you wanted because of vegetated tile or move where you want? Commander. If you think I'm exploiting the game playing like this I gotta say you're not exploiting it enough. Army commander is the best unit in the game.

I thought unpacking and repacking in the same turn was a bug?

 

[CliffCo]

I thought unpacking and repacking in the same turn was a bug?

I think it is too, one that people sometimes exploit. There were many exploitable bugs in Civ6 that people took advantage of and while in some ways they can be no different to some mods that change gameplay i avoid using exploits and any mods that aren't UI.

 

[sixty4half]

Have they said it was a bug, or listed it anywhere saying it would be patched?

At this point (months into the game, 2 patches and a DLC put out); Not a bug until it's listed as one.

 

[CliffCo]

Have they said it was a bug, or listed it anywhere saying it would be patched?

At this point (months into the game, 2 patches and a DLC put out); Not a bug until it's listed as one.

While I haven’t searched through the live issues on the official site It may not list all the bugs that haven’t been patched yet, there’s probably many bugs that haven’t been listed as some of the patches actually create new bugs. It sounds more like a bug than by game design imo.

 

[MutilationWave]

Yeah I thought that was just the function of the commander. Are you guys saying packing and unpacking the same unit is an exploit, or being able to pack or unpack multiple units is an exploit? The latter I disagree completely, for the former I guess it is possibly a bug. I'm not gonna stop because it's fun, but if they decide it's a bug and patch it then I'll change my playstyle.

EDIT- I read the thread again. I also do not play with exploits and only use UI mods. If this is really proved to be an exploit I will stop it, but it seems to reduce the usefulness of commanders quite a bit. I thought it was to simulate battle tactics and help with the "sliding puzzle" aspect of 1UPT combat.

 

[sixty4half]

Packing costs 1 move point so it's not something you can do multiple times in 1 turn with the same unit.

I think the real oversight is putting the most useful ability in the tier 1 unlocks.

 

[MutilationWave]

Packing costs 1 move point so it's not something you can do multiple times in 1 turn with the same unit.

I think the real oversight is putting the most useful ability in the tier 1 unlocks.

What about units that have 3+ movement? They can pack and unpack multiple times each turn.

Agreed on initiative. It should either be included in the base function of commanders or moved somewhere else in the trees.

 

[sixty4half]

*holds hands up in the air*

Oops you got me there! I should have said infinite instead of multiple

 

[Naokaukodem]

Just one general tip, let's say you need to attack a unit on the other side of some rough terrain with cavalry. Come up to commander, pack, unpack on top of rough terrain. You have used 1 movement to move two hexes and are unaffected by the terrain because your unit is effectively starting it's turn on that rough tile.

So you have used 2 movement to move two hexes ? Oh no, it's just packing that costs 1 movement point, and unpacking is free as long as you have the correct promotion. (if you don't it used ALL of your moves - however many of them your unit has) It's a little too strong I would say, but in the other hand that makes generals somewhat useful, otherwise they would be kind of meh. And it also kind of forces you to pick the same first promotion every time, which is like a no brainer. (fake choice : it's a trap !) What leads me to conclude that yes, this kind of play is probably exploiting the game as is.

My conclusion is as follows to contempt everyone including me (for more usability of GGs) : generals should have the ability to unpack freely by default, no need of promotion.

One question still : can you move your GG without spending moves of inside units ? Another one : can you still unpack any unit when your GG has no movement points left ?

 

[MutilationWave]

So you have used 2 movement to move two hexes ? Oh no, it's just packing that costs 1 movement point, and unpacking is free as long as you have the correct promotion. (if you don't it used ALL of your moves - however many of them your unit has) It's a little too strong I would say, but in the other hand that makes generals somewhat useful, otherwise they would be kind of meh. And it also kind of forces you to pick the same first promotion every time, which is like a no brainer. (fake choice : it's a trap !) What leads me to conclude that yes, this kind of play is probably exploiting the game as is.

My conclusion is as follows to contempt everyone including me (for more usability of GGs) : generals should have the ability to unpack freely by default, no need of promotion.

One question still : can you move your GG without spending moves of inside units ? Another one : can you still unpack any unit when your GG has no movement points left ?

Yes, moving commander costs no movement of the packed in units. No you can't unpack when commander has no movement left.

So for example if your commander has manueverability promotion and already has a unit packed, let's say it has 4 movement. So you can pack a unit with 3 movement, move the commander 3 tiles, then unpack the unit and move two more tiles, greatly expanding range. This works especially well with naval commanders.

I have one more tip, and that's to keep a scout packed in every army commander. There is a semi-secret extra slot for civilian units in the commander. So you can leave the scout packed and still carry four military units or six with promotion. This allows manueverability to be constantly active without sacrificing one of your military units.

 

[CliffCo]

I have one more tip, and that's to keep a scout packed in every army commander. There is a semi-secret extra slot for civilian units in the commander. So you can leave the scout packed and still carry four military units or six with promotion. This allows manueverability to be constantly active without sacrificing one of your military units.

I don’t do this with scouts as they are usually exploring well ahead of my troops, but I have done this and found it very useful with settlers especially when moving them to distant lands.

 

[MutilationWave]

I don’t do this with scouts as they are usually exploring well ahead of my troops, but I have done this and found it very useful with settlers especially when moving them to distant lands.

Scouts cost next to nothing to buy, I buy one for each commander specifically and keep my regular scouts doing scouting.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Indeed there's a lot going on with commanders, o.m.g. I'm not surprised anymore that you love them so much, but I wish they explained this somewhere because I totally went aside of this - I guess an explanation would be necessary, but I still think it's kind of exploits.

- On topic - I had that flash again thinking about this thread playing Civ5 : the camera doesn't move when you first encounter another civilization unit, so you often miss out on the encounter itself, which can give some useful information (was this a scout, so possibly a far civ, a warrior, so possibly a close civ, and in what direction should you go to see their capital and surroundings, or in what direction should you go to discover ruins before them). So I immediately thought about this little idea of mine : instead of just merely focusing the camera on the encounter, for an undetermined number of seconds, just insist on this encounter with a unique sound and possibly a voice saying : "YOU'VE ENCOUNTERED A N000000 CIVILIZAÏCHEUN" with possibly a "a la Civ4 war horn" sound and some other visual or sound effects. That could work for a various list of handpicked events.