1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

CiV can learn a lot from Rise of Mankind.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Antmanbrooks, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Antmanbrooks

    Antmanbrooks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    The Cheshire Plain.
    For me, the reason I can't get into CiV is because I've been spoilt by the wealth of extra features in Rise of Mankind (RoM). Since Saturday morning I have gone back to playing RoM 2.91 with the seafaring mod installed (stops early boats entering the ocean). I can ask only one thing of the people at Firaxis, take a look at this mod and learn from it. This is what the content of CiV should have been like. More, more, more.

    So far, these are the things I have noticed that RoM excels at when compared to CiV.

    1. The RoM tech tree has many more techs and is far more convincing in it's coverage of the advancement through the ages. RoM has 288 techs which means playing on a slower speed is important, which suits my prefered game type anyway. I don't know if this would adversely effect quicker games?

    2. Resource trading is far more realistic and much greater depth is achieved with more resources to trade. You can trade anything with your neighbours. So that extra Cow, Fish or Sheep can be traded for Rice, Corn or Crabs that you lack, allowing you to build specialist buildings like a Butchery or improving the output of exsisting buildings like the Granary. These food resources also improve the speed of growth across your empire. I also like having to link up my resources to trade them, this adds nothing really other than it feels more realistic and can add a dimension to empire defence, guarding key roads can be important. A good trade infastructure has been of paramount importance to just about every Civilisation in the history of man. Without roads linking everything we would have nowhere near the standard of living we have today.

    3. Religion is still here and has been expanded on too, with more buildings, units and a few extra Religions to boot. I miss this BIG TIME. My entire game has been shaped by the Hindu armies of Carthage assaulting the coastal cities of my religious bretheren in the Khemetic (Egyption style religion) Malinese Empire. They captured the holy city and then an event pops up compelling me to liberate the Holy City! You have to work hard at keeping foreign religious states happy with you.

    4. Events are another thing I miss, they add a legitimate random feel to the game and add historical flavour. Plague breaks out in the midle ages, earthquakes and other natural disasters strike your cities and improvments.

    5. The Wonders, again expanded upon are much more balanced. There are no game breakers in my opinion and they all have a value beyond just another building.

    6. Stacks of units are great! I'm not buying the killer stack wins all argument. There are countless examples in my current game of RoM and many more in previous games where terrain, promotions, the right units and the right Civics and buildings have led to my stack being annihilated or me defending successfully against a much larger AI stack. Stacks are vulnerable if hit with the right counter. It's simple, more unit usually mean an advantage, whether stacked or not. Taking out stacks just means more micro management and longer, more boring turn times.

    7. Civics beat the new system in my opinion too, they just needed expanding upon like in RoM. I can create a despotic, intollerant, barter based slave society or a peace loving republic with free religion and proletariat society, they both have importance at certain stages of the game. These choices in CiV seem too dependant on culture rather than technology. It could be argued that the Aztecs had one of the most vibrant and unique cultures in history, yet they were hardly capable of a globe spanning mercantile network because they lacked the key technology. Yet on CiV that culture means they can quite easily neglect tech (to a degree) and still create a mercantile society. My point is, tech should influence civic choices, not culture.

    8. There are of course many more units, buildings, promotions, techs, resources etc.. just about everything has been expanded upon in RoM and yet it's still balanced. CiV seems to have been simplified and yet it's somehow wildly unbalanced?

    9. But the big thing for me that sets RoM apart from CiV is the revolutions mod included. This combined with all the extra features means empire management is now all important. You can't just rely on having the biggest Empire controlling more key resources, because if your Civics, army and economy isn't up to handling a large far flung empire it'll go the way of so many great and powerful empires of the past. To dust. It will disintegrate and fracture and new vibrant cultures will spring up in competition with you! This is what civilization is all about!

    10. Finally City states are handled much better, that barbarian unit that's been pestering your sheep will eventually get bored and set up a city of it's own and in time it will also consider itself a minor civilisation and if left alone will form a full blown civilization of it's own.

    Why Firaxis didn't take the lessons of RoM on board I do not know? The graphics, speed optimization (allegedly?) and hex maps of CiV combined with the balance and detail of RoM would be a wonder to behold and surely the game CiV should hav been. I can't wait for Zappara and Afforess and the rest of the modding community to turn CiV into RoM again, but can't for the life of me understand why Firaxis didn't do the majority of it on release?
     
  2. Silver44Guy

    Silver44Guy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Messages:
    45
    Yeah I agree with you. I suppose we'll have to wait and see if Civ5 reaches the level that civ4>bts>rom was on.
     
  3. ChaplainDMK

    ChaplainDMK Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    103
    Evrey good mod makes the vanilla game look so incredibly avrage...
    Take a look at Battlefield 2, Project Reality makes it look like a toy... Or C&C Generals: Cold War Crisis or Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis: FFUR or Sim City 4 etc.
     
  4. ahmedhadzi

    ahmedhadzi Relocation Consultant

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Astoria, NYC
    Oh it will in 2-3 years:D, even Zappara himself said we will not see RoM ciV till next year. My thought was that all the people here became members of this site since they loved complex civ game, and I thought the same, that's until I found RoM - A new Dawn (which I like better than base RoM). And I finally got the game which I wanted since I started to fully understand the concepts of Civilization.

    ciV was a let down in that regard.

    ciV has a pottential to be very good game, but even know I can't play vanilla anymore. Only with Val's economy mod.
     
  5. Antmanbrooks

    Antmanbrooks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2007
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    The Cheshire Plain.
    Yeah I love AND too, it adds even more to RoM, but I play both. The game I'm playing at the moment is just RoM though.
     
  6. apotheoser

    apotheoser Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    336
    Civ 5 can learn a lot from:

    Master of Magic
    Alpha Centuari
    Civilization 4
    anybody who isn't Jon Shafer
     
  7. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,509
    Location:
    The cutest of cephalopods
    RoM was developed under the More is Moar school of design that doesn't know when it has a good number of features and decreases the quality of the whole through inclusion of the mediocre. My favorite phase of Fall From Heaven was towards the end when more features were getting cut than added.
     
  8. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    14,786
    RoM started off that way and eventually stabalizes so features were being cut out which is when AND came into play by adding even more features but around 1.73 or 1.74, things were being cut again for balance and quality (1.75 saw a ton of UUs being cut out for instance).

    So it all fixed itself out 3/4s of the way through.

    People like more anyway. If they didn't, why is Rise from Erebus and A New Dawn so popular? Why do modmods exist in the first place? :lol:
     
  9. Froptus

    Froptus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Northern California
    I was also hoping that Civ 5 would be like Civ 4 + ROM. It's not and yes I'm a little disappointed. However, Civ 5 is a good solid foundation and I'm confident that Zap and his fellow modders will turn it into a great game along with some help from Firaxis in the form of patches and expansion packs.

    Also thanks to Firaxis for finally getting rid of the ridiculous super stacks. Combat is much better although it would be nice to have an easier way of moving around multiple units at once. I love the new limited resources too.

    Take your time Zap on Civ 5 ROM 1.0 (or will it have a new name?). I'll be waiting patiently.
     
  10. DrunkenPirate

    DrunkenPirate Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2008
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Norfolk, England
    I'd pay good money for that to happen.
     
  11. poncratias

    poncratias Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    336
    Fully agree with OP.

    Since I tasted RoM, nothing else could match up to that.
    An unforgetable gaming experience, and it's mainly the reason why i got so downed by CiV.

    I really hope for much input to this, so we all can profit from a complete overhaul of CiV.
     
  12. gunburned

    gunburned Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Messages:
    139
    Rise of Mankind for Civ5, now theres something I simply cannot bear to wait for!:goodjob:
     
  13. Davor

    Davor Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Messages:
    542
    What is Rise of Mankind? I never herd of it.
     
  14. Brawndo

    Brawndo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2010
    Messages:
    255
    How do you play RoM? I tried it a couple of times and just couldn't get into it because there was so much clutter. It had a lot of interesting ideas, IMO there comes a certain point when more is not better, especially when tons of units were marginally different.

    For example, a standard Light Swordsman has 7 STR, and the unique unit replacement for three other civs are barely any different, the Gauls have a swordsman with +10% city attack, the Romans have a legionnaire with +1 STR. It gets so repetitive after awhile.

    I would like to see some RoM concepts implemented into CiV, but not most of it
     
  15. Malkaviel

    Malkaviel Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    338
    Rhye's and Fall was a better civ4 mod. FFH2 was a better civ4 mod.

    /thread
     
  16. afa2000

    afa2000 Time to die

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    339
    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
    I love RoM + AND. I hope they'll release that for civ V ASAP.
     
  17. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I agree with everything except for the stacks. If AI was made to use it correctly I think it's a lot more fun.

    Anyway, I'd love to see ROM for ciV.

    Well, that and FFH3. :goodjob:
     
  18. turboraton

    turboraton Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Messages:
    83
    You have heard the masses, Affo. BRING US A NEW DAWN FOR CIV5:scan:





    Pd: Pretty please.
     
  19. the343danny

    the343danny Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    498
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    RoM was just too much of everything. It also had terrible memory leak issues too, as well as big performance issues. Best model to look at IMO was Legends of Revolutions. It had hero units (like 300 Spartans and Red Baron), had parts of BUG and BAI integrated, ranged bombard on some of the later tech units, some new wonders, and ofc Revolutions. It also had some more stuff which I cant recall at the moment. It also didnt break the back of the AI, unlike with RoM.
     
  20. kaltorak

    kaltorak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,520
    Location:
    Madrid
    Could agree if it weren't for point 6
     

Share This Page