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Civ choice and early strategy

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by Lanzelot, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, our own private forum, nice! :)

    Dear fellow Knights,

    I suggest we start off by discussing our civ choice and the early strategy we want to follow. (Both are inter-related, e.g the early strategy will certainly depend on the civ traits, starting techs and unique unit.)

    I think it is pretty safe to assume that this will be a small continents map with 60 or 70% water, and the available civs will probably be the "Calis list" or a slight modification thereof.

    Lanzelot
     
  2. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    Without Agri and AA UU?
    Then I would choose Vikings.
     
  3. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Vikings are also my first choice.
    Or Cartage, if they are allowed.
    China, for super UU.

    If we want Sling
    England or Portugal for starting techs.
    But with Barbs I prefer militaristic.

    What conference of 4 decides if many teams want Vikings?
     
  4. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    My first choice would be England. I think Commercial is a bit better than Expansionist and also the Man-of-War looks better than the Carrack.
    Both, England and Portugal, can have a very easy GA (Colossus or Lighthouse).

    And with these civs it might be a bit easier to find allies, than with the Vikings... :D

    It probably depends on: do we want a peaceful or a violent approach...?

    Edit: of course Industrious would be nice as well. So Carthage, if allowed, or France come to my mind. Both start with Alphabet and might have a chance at the slingshot.
     
  5. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    I hate England. ;)
    England have Pottery, but Pottery is a cheep Tech and i think "Anarchie" choice a Civ with Pottery.
    So its cheeper for us.
    Its a small Map, so i think that we never see a Man-of-War in this Game.
    I like the Idee of an early war with Archers and a later one with Berserkers.
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    But an early granary is very important most of the time, isn't it? And if you want to try for Philosophy, you can't waste time with Pottery.
    Or will we go for early military action instead of development?! :D (But I'm not experienced on that type of game -- I'm the peaceful builder... :D )
     
  7. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Without Barbarians England or Portugal is a good choice. Extra gold on costal tile on smal (big in fact) map is important. + starting tech Alphabet. Extra Unit (scout) make in game vs human even more important.
    But barbarians need something to care. We will need Swords or Archers to deal with them.
    I am affraid it is too risky to stay with just warriors at all Writing -> Phylosphy path.
    But with scout we may take this risk... Don't know.
    But sling not a Victory of the game.
    Now question: what if not Vikings?
     
  8. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i read through the ruleset discussion thread last night. omg! :eek: was all of the discussion like this? :rolleyes:

    do i really have to read all the other sub-threads or can somebody enlighten me what we do already know? seemingly we do not know the settings, but assume it is continents. - i have never played this, but i would not think that a continents game against another human player would end too early, would it?

    how many teams/civs are in the game? 4? that gives enough land for everyone, even on a small map.

    i thought about it a little and believe that normally useless units and traits may be very powerful against other human players. Vikes sound good to me, France too. if we want the sling, this would have to happen at high risk (if we are not alone on an island), as we won't be able to compete for free Republic AND build a decent military at the same time. it would have to be a perfect mm game, and we are going to need the right starting techs. i am with Ivan here.
    if we dismiss the sling, i think china would be good. Iros and Persia will not be available, if i understood you correctly.

    is there something like a guidebook for games against humans one could give me a reference to? or just a few core ideas for someone who has never played that kind of game?

    templar_x
     
  9. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    If we play with agri, Netherlands are good.
     
  10. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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  11. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    @ memento - i do not find a guidebook under that link, only a huge list of DGs.
    what i want to know if there is something like a strategy article or the war academy on human-human games. i am sure there must be some common knowledge already from those many games, like what is good/safe/bad/risky playing against another human for the start, etc.
    or just try to tell someone who has never played a DG or PBEM what is special about playing against other human players.

    templar_x
     
  12. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    There is only one general rule about human-human play: "in contrast to the AI, the human opponent is quite unpredictable".
    So anything you do, might be good/safe/bad or risky... :D All depends on the opponent and on the psychology between the two parties...

    I'm afraid one can learn this only by own experience, not via the Military Academy... But I will post something on that topic in the other thread in a moment.
     
  13. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Your e-mail to me was very useful. I will find it and put here...

    Lanzelot's introduction:

    For now only that much:
    When I started my first PBEM 1.5 years ago, I was a complete beginner as well and
    was afraid the experienced multi-players would run me over with a horde of archers in
    2000BC... Well, this didn't happen... With the experience I learned in the GOTM compe=
    tition, I was able to play successfully and even win my very first game.
    So I guess you have nothing to worry about...! ;-)

    (I think that in the beginning people have played MP like that (big stack of archers
    instead of developing a core), but then they soon realized that you can run over
    a direct neighbor that way, but during that time the other nations will get ahead
    of you and you will loose to them in the end. So today nobody plays that way any
    more.)

    In my experience, around half of the people in the PBEM community do not possess
    the same kind of technical skill level that a GOTM veteran possesses. There are
    only two people who are really excellent Civ3 players, from a technical as well
    as strategical point of view: Calis and muzbang.
    However, this does not mean that one can beat the PBEM players as easily as in
    a single-player game! There are two more points that need to be taken into
    consideration:
    1. No matter how good you are as a Civ3 player, you need a friend/ally.
    Because what will happen, if you attack another player and become a
    "runaway" nation, is that all the others will team up against you.
    Usually, the first person to declare war will get dog-piled and loose the
    game... Best example is what happened to Spain in the "Age of Discovery" scenario.
    Spain is certainly one of the strongest nations in that scenario, and it just
    started it's Golden Age around turn 30, but then it was careless and attacked
    small Portugal. Immediately Portugal, France and England formed an alliance and
    wiped Spain off the map... :)
    2. Psychology is important. A lot of negotiations, forming alliances, making secret
    deals, etc is happening in direct email communication. (The F4 screen is pretty
    much useless in multiplayer...) You need to know your opponents, help them a bit,
    but not too much, etc.
    I guess you know the way Lasker played chess, right?

    So most of the players are quite good on the "diplomatic" side of the game: Eclipse, Cyc,
    TomBxx, and probably more that I haven't played with yet. You should not underestimate
    this.


    A couple of things are a bit different from single-player:
    1. Most important: if you have never played with "Accellerated Production", then
    play a little test game in order to get used to that! It changes a lot and certainly
    has an impact on micromanagement as well as strategy. You only need half the beakers
    for every tech, half the food for city growth and half the shields for production.
    In a little single player game with ac.prod. you will get the hang if it.
    2. The F4 screen does not give you much information about your opponents. You see only
    your side of your table, not the other one. So you can find out, which techs your
    opponent does not have, but you can't see which ones he has.
    3. Workers work a bit strange: everything is finished one turn earlier than in
    single-player, but then the worker stays "immobile" for the last turn.
    For example, when building a road, the road is finished after 2 turns, it already
    gives you extra gold and can already be used for getting your settler to its
    destination faster, but the worker cannot be moved during the 3rd turn.
    I used this feature a lot in my micromanagement.
    4. Similarly when you use the auto-move feature for units, it will move once during
    your turn and then a second time immediately after your turn, before the next
    players turn. So it will make 2 moves during turn 1 and 0 moves during turn 2
    (stays immobile just like the worker above).
    For this reason the auto-move feature is FORBIDDEN in multi-player, because it
    would allow you in one single turn to send a spearman into an attacked city from
    a city that's 6 tiles away... So most players aggree that this is an unfair
    advantage and is therefore forbidden.
    5. Battle reports: as the other player cannot see your attacks (as he would in a
    single-player game) one is obliged to post a battle report about all moves that
    would be visible to the opponent in a "normal" game.
     
  14. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

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    France sounds good to me: Commercial for more commerce and less corruption; Industrious for fast workers (we will be able to build a road in 1 turn!) and more shields. Furthermore, as far as I understand it has a great UU for human vs human play - Musketeer.

    I'm also new to human vs human games so, templar x, we could practice a bit to get a better feeling.

    ISDG will be played with accelerated production turned on?
     
  15. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    France UU come too late in the game. Also we may need Pottery + WC for normal start. No cheap buildings, no extra commerce at Coastal tile.

    Most probably ISDG will be played with accelerated production turned OFF.

    What your timezone now? We may try PBEM with t_x. In fact, "hot seat" game very similar to PBEM, you may try on your computer.
     
  16. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

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    Since it is continents and human beings playing against each other - the game should last for quite a while. Defensive units has different, more important role in human vs human games.

    At http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9 you can find many interesting PBEM game write ups (many excellent civ3 players played one against each other and posted there, like akots vs obormot, killercane vs wackenopenair and many more).

    London time for me. And You?
     
  17. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Brazil. but now in USA.
    you want play 1 to 1?
    Let's use GMT for our "availability schedule".
    I can check for turns regularly during work days from 14:00 - 21:00 and in the evenings 23:00 - 03:00
    On the weekends I check less regularly but approximately like above.
    email vaniala2000@yahoo.co.uk
     
  18. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    @templar
    in German I could give you a few tips, but i think Lanzelot introduction is good.
     
  19. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    Back to Civ choice. It seems that every civ but agriculturals allowed.
    We are only 6 Members, so we need no Poll.

    My suggestion is that everybody calls 5 Civ.
    1. becomes 5 points,2. 4p, 3. 3p, 4. 2p, 5. 1p

    My Vote:
    1.Vikings 5
    2.England 4
    3.Carthage 3
    4.Portugal 2
    5.Chinese 1

    Or is there a better Idea?
     
  20. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    My Vote:
    1. Byzantia 5
    2. Carthage 4
    3. Vikings 2
    4. Portugal 2
    5. Greeks 2
    If Byzantia is allowed it is superb civ. All games like OCC AW Sid was Byzantia.
    Carthage goes next. I put at the rest three very different civs but in my oppinion
    approximately equal.
     

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