Civ choice and early strategy

[I. Larkin]

Civ choice and early planing.

Still hard to discuss as still we don’t know what the “list” will be.
However, basic ideas remain the same.
1) I believe, we need cooperation at least with one team. It is tricky question how and when we betray our partner, but it is long time afterward.
2) In long run seafaring Civs better, then others for extra commerce, their starting tech Alpha (good for sling), fast ships and cheap harbors.
3) After that : Industrial better for fast workers and expensive starting Tech. Scientific - cheap lib, est., Militaristic – cheap barracks, Expansionist - scout… they are almost balanced IMHO.
4) If we consider non-seafaring civ it may be India, China for good UU.

Now imagine how game may go:
First: We need cooperation with at least one team. If our continent neighbor will reject cooperation we should look overseas. We need some units to defend ourselves. In fact Archers may consider as defensive units (kill invaders) and spears are offensive: pillage and destroy enemy’s territory. Clear, that decent military is guaranty, that neighbor will be more enthusiastic for cooperation. So it will be better to have civ with BW or WC.
Next: Suppose, we did initial phase OK, and had good partner, and ensure fast development. What next? Answer is simple: expansion and suppression of weak neighbor. It may be scientific civ for technology jump at MA + unique UU (Byzantia) or Vikings with their unique UU. I can imagine situation, that small civ will lock small island and “stay”. In this case Vikings may do their final win. However, Byzantia may simply prevent island occupation…
That’s all I have in mind in a moment. Any other’s thoughts?

 

[Lanzelot]

I would pick Carthage from the current top 5: UU isn't that useless and it's industrious. I wonder is it hard to send a spaceship in PBEM game?

2) In long run seafaring Civs better, then others for extra commerce, their starting tech Alpha (good for sling), fast ships and cheap harbors.
3) After that : Industrial better for fast workers and expensive starting Tech.

Sea + Ind = Carthage

Everyone (except templar) had them on their list, so I would prefer them too at the moment. The UU can be good for defense as well as offense!! And industrious is indeed very strong in multi-player. (1-turn road!)

I like the idea of spaceship victory. At the moment I'm trying it in one of my PBEMs, not sure yet, whether it can be done. But spaceship just requires developing a strong civ, and that can be used for any type of victory, if spaceship turns out to become difficult...

Edit: if ignas gices Carthage 5 points, they would currently be top of the list with 15 points.

 

[Memento]

Spaceship is not realistic in a DG. If u want to play 4 Years?
Carthage= early UU-early GA? ABC+Masonry Starttech. hmmm,i dont know

Edit: Just i saw this:

small 80x80

Does this change our selection?
I thought 70x70.

 

[Lanzelot]

Does this change our selection?
I thought 70x70.

80x80 makes seafaring even stronger, doesn't it?! The Carthagenian Mercenary should still be ok to trigger GA in early MA?!

Spaceship is not realistic in a DG. If u want to play 4 Years?

Idea: we just play until the other teams drop out one by one... The last team standing is then declared victor... (A well-known strategy in chess matches: bore the opponent to death... )

 

[Memento]

80x80=more Land=good for Indust,but for sea?

The Carthagenian Mercenary should still be ok to trigger GA in early MA?!

U think that we have the first war in the MA?
In all DGs the first war was in the middle of the AA.
I'm afraid that we have our GA in Despo.

 

[Lanzelot]

80x80 = more water and longer distances between civs = good for seafaring.
(But of course it's also good for industrious, so that makes Carthage even stronger?!)

U think that we have the first war in the MA?
In all DGs the first war was in the middle of the AA.
I'm afraid that we have our GA in Despo.

You may be right here. So far I have almost no experience on small maps. All my PBEMs (except one, which is only ~20 turns old) are at standard or bigger.

But: do we need to participate in the first war? Perhaps its possible to remain peaceful and let the others first quarrel a bit. And once we have built up our full potential, we join the frame...

 

[TheOverseer714]

Obviously, I am totally a noob at this playing against people business, so my preferences are in other game types. Therefore, a re-vote by me will be necessary.
Here is my new list, going by my idea of best non-agricultural traits for small maps.

1. Carthage
2. China
3. Vikings
4. India
5. Romans

 

[Memento]

Hmm, it seems that we are Carthage.
Ok, let us building a great Empire.

 

[ignas]

If u want to play 4 Years?

Yes


Despotic GA with Carthage is not really good. But we might avoid it by building swords and then trigger when we think the time is right.

1) I believe, we need cooperation at least with one team. It is tricky question how and when we betray our partner, but it is long time afterward.

Agree. This game should be a balance between sensible diplomacy and intelligent warfare.

 

[templar_x]

i asked somewhere in this thread, and still would like to know, if it happens that you have war with a neighbor and get back to peace again? or is it usual that once you start war you stay in that mode until one is eliminated? i assume the second will be true with human players...

if it is, and you have an aggressive neighbour, wouldn´t it be good strategy if he simply would attack the strong Carth. defender and thus trigger an untimely early GA? he probably would not overrun us in that phase, but our strongest bullet would be shot...

templar_x

 

[TheOverseer714]

Then we don't build them until we can risk a GA. Defending never works in the long run anyway, even against AI opponents.

 

[Memento]

i asked somewhere in this thread, and still would like to know, if it happens that you have war with a neighbor and get back to peace again? or is it usual that once you start war you stay in that mode until one is eliminated?

In the DGs i play, always war to the end

 

[I. Larkin]

Can we make following “exercise”? It may help to make final decision. Let consider 3 -4 civs, like Cartage, Byzantia, Vikings, and India (say) and try to make approximate plan of development for 60-80 turns. Plan should contain many “If - then” forks, the biggest “If” is cooperation with continental “friend”. Plan may consider “build order” for fpt , say, 3-5, order of research and way of scouting.
For example Cartage assume research of BW and pottery, and after we may try for sling, build order may be Warrior, curragh, Granary. Or other way?
Byzantia may start sling straight or Pottery first? Or IW first?
What will build Vikings?
How India will go?

 

[Lanzelot]

Let's also include one of England or Portugal, just to see the effect of Alpha+Pots. (Perhaps instead of India?! I don't like religious that much, looks like a "wasted" trait to me. On the other hand, the War Elephant might be great as "leading our opponents onto a false clue. However, if we will really have "hidden nationality" in this game, then it doesn't work: no one will know that we are India, until they see an elephant... )

 

[TheOverseer714]

Hidden nationality adds an interesting wrinkle, if that is what the rules will be. If no one sees a UU, then they won't know to trigger our GA.

 

[templar_x]

doesn´t hidden nationalitly only veil the ... nationality, but still show the kind of unit?

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

"Hidden nationality" is probably an incorrect term here. But I didn't know how to name it otherwise. It does not mean that your units will appear as "white" to your opponents (so that nobody would know whom these units belong to). No, everybody's units can still be identified. What it means is, that the other teams will not know, which civilization you are playing. There will be 4 civilizations named according to our team names, and it is clear, which team has which color. But you don't know, which color is which civilization... So if we meet the Eagles, and their color is brown, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the Russians. They could as well play the French... Only when you see a brown hoplite, you know that they are the Greeks...

Under these conditions we might as well take the Ottomans for a peaceful research game...

(Sorry, Memento, that I had to use the word "peaceful" again... )

 

[Memento]

Can we make following “exercise”? It may help to make final decision. Let consider 3 -4 civs, like Cartage, Byzantia, Vikings, and India (say) and try to make approximate plan of development for 60-80 turns. Plan should contain many “If - then” forks, the biggest “If” is cooperation with continental “friend”. Plan may consider “build order” for fpt , say, 3-5, order of research and way of scouting.
For example Cartage assume research of BW and pottery, and after we may try for sling, build order may be Warrior, curragh, Granary. Or other way?
Byzantia may start sling straight or Pottery first? Or IW first?
What will build Vikings?
How India will go?

If we play peaceful:
All sea Civs: 1st build:Curragh for early Contact,2nd Warrior
Cartage: ABC+Masonry ; Research:Writing
Byzant:ABC+BW ;Research:Writing
Portugal or England:ABC+Pottery ; Research:Writing
India: ABC+CB ; Research:->Monarchy, 1st Action:resign
Not Peaceful:
Vikings:ABC+WC; Research:Writing, 1st build:Archer

If we have 3 Cows or grain, 1st build:Settler

I think more teams will start with Pottery, so Pottery is cheaper for us. If we have early Contact we can trade Pottery and another Tech or Gold for ABC or Masonry.

 

[I. Larkin]

1) What map size we prefer? What Tecrate mean? 200 means Writhing =160?

1) If we play peaceful:
All sea Civs: 1st build:Curragh for early Contact,2nd Warrior
Cartage: ABC+Masonry ; Research:Writing
Byzant:ABC+BW ;Research:Writing
Portugal or England:ABC+Pottery ; Research:Writing
5 India: ABC+CB ; Research:->Monarchy, 1st Action:resign
Not Peaceful:
6 Vikings:ABC+WC; Research:Writing, 1st build:Archer

If we have 3 Cows or grain, 1st build:Settler

I think more teams will start with Pottery, so Pottery is cheaper for us. If we have early Contact we can trade Pottery and another Tech or Gold for ABC or Masonry.

1) From the very beginning we don't know. I'd build Warrior first. We need MP anyway.
2) for Cartage we need BW first, I think. Who knows what other will do? Or few warriors may protect us?
3) Byzantia may start from writing for sure. We have BW...
4) Portugal: may hope for early contact. Probably Writing OK.
5) India WC-> Monarchy, Warrior, Curragh,
6) Vikings Writing, Archer, Curragh, barracks, archer...

 

[Memento]

Ok, we can build Warrior 1st, only Ports i would build Curragh first,because we the scout.
We play emperor, so we dont need MP early.