Civ Discussion - America

[bengalryan9]

I kind of went back and forth on whether or not to continue these threads into the Modern Age but I figured I'd at least give it a shot and see how it goes. Up first is America, an economic and expansionist civ with a starting bias towards rough terrain and rivers. Their associated wonder is the Statue of Liberty, which awards +6 happiness and 4 migrant units. You can unlock America by playing as the Romans, Normans, or Shawnee, by choosing Ben Franklin, Harriet Tubman, Lafayette, Tecumseh, or Pachacuti as your leader, or by settling 3 settlements on plains or grasslands in distant lands.

Their unique ability is Frontier Expansion, which gives 100 gold any time you improve a resource.
Their unique military unit is the Marine, a cheaper rifle infantry unit that is amphibious and no movement penalty for embarking or disembarking.
Their unique civilian unit is the Prospector, a completely unique unit that can claim unowned resources within 5 hexes of a settlement (the unit is removed from play upon doing so). They get more expensive each time one is trained.
Their unique buildings are the Steel Mill (base +6 production, with bonus gold for adjacent wonders and resources) and the Railyard (base +5 production, with bonus production for adjacent wonders and quarters). Together these form the unique quarter, the Industrial Park, giving +2 resource slots to the settlement.

American civics:
Yankee Ingenuity - unlocks the Steel Mill and Gold Rush tradition, and at mastery gives +25% gold towards purchasing prospectors.
Captains of Industry - unlocks the Railyard and Robber Barons tradition, and at mastery gives +2 production on resources as well as +1 settlement limit
Wartime Manufacturing - unlocks the Statue of Liberty and gives units +3 CS for having more than one adjacent enemy unit, and at mastery unlocks the Lend-Lease tradition and gives +25% production towards units when in a war where your support is higher than your opponent

American traditions:
Gold Rush - increased gold for every assigned resource
Robber Barons - +2 influence in settlements for each resource assigned to them
Lend-Lease - +25 gold and +5 influence for every trade route

Thoughts on America? Strong, weak, or just right? Which victory path do you think they are best suited for, and which leaders make for good compliments to them?

 

[bengalryan9]

I don't know what the general consensus of America is but I just played them for the first time in months and got my quickest and easiest victory ever (on Immortal). I transitioned to them from Spain, so my economy was already really strong and I was able to quickly purchase a bunch of prospectors and grab all kinds of resources. I completed the economic path very quickly an that was all she wrote.

Their huge emphasis on production makes them well equipped for any victory type, though - the science projects will be fast, you can churn out explorers if you want to go cultural, quickly get railroads, ports, and factories for economic, or churn out a military and go to war. They are very flexible.

They also get a ridiculous amount of influence. Robber Barons is pretty nuts IMO. How much you're really going to benefit from that the way the modern age currently stands may vary, but it's a really strong part of their kit that is easy to take advantage of.

Prospectors are fun! Marines are kinda mediocre IMO. Statue of Liberty has an effect that would be great way earlier in the game but at this point it's pretty underwhelming. Industrial Park is strong and those extra resource slots are nice to have.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

America was the first Modern Age Civ I played 'way back several Patches ago, and even though I was still learning the game, it was an easy win.

Which, I think, points up how strong Production and Gold are in the game. Have either one, and you can build up your cities fast into whatever kind of powerhouse you think you will need, crank out units to sustain a war (or a defense), build whatever units or structures are needed for the Legacy you are pursuing.

Have both, like America does, and you can steamroller the game. I still remember fondly being able to buy my first three railroad stations and factories to start the Economic Victory at a gallop . . .

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

Might very well be the best Modern Civ choice for going for Economic Victories even as it has tools to assist with other victory types if things go awry.

The Modern Age is one where a civ's full kit rarely comes into play due to how short the age can be, but if there are changes to Modern Victory conditions or if a 4th age gets added, this civ very much seems like one that is fairly future-proof in its design. As previously stated, its traditions are insanely good for getting gold and influence. These traditions also have great synergy with the unique quarter which also adds a decent bit of production.

 

[Chefofrats]

I like America the most out of all the modern civs. I just love grabbing tiles with prospectors - as other civs, it can be so frustrating to have tasty resources just a tile or two out of range of your settlement. Not with America though! Then there is the insane amount of influence you get from Robber Barons - it basically lets you befriend independent powers for free. And finally, the unique quarter is awsome, too, granting loads of production, and increasing resource limit for a quick economic win.

Please, continue with these threads, bengalryan9. I enjoy reading them, and even if there aren't always plenty of replies, I learn something interesting from every discussion.

 

[bengalryan9]

The Modern Age is one where a civ's full kit rarely comes into play due to how short the age can be, but if there are changes to Modern Victory conditions or if a 4th age gets added, this civ very much seems like one that is fairly future-proof in its design. As previously stated, its traditions are insanely good for getting gold and influence. These traditions also have great synergy with the unique quarter which also adds a decent bit of production.

The question is, when a 4th age gets added, where will these modern era civs end up? My guess is that America is almost guaranteed to be in whatever the last age of the game is, but I don't know that this would necessarily be the case for *all* of the civs in the game's current "modern age". We probably don't have enough information to really guess one way or the other, I suppose, but I don't know that all of these civs are going to be grouped together in the same age for the entire duration of the game. If that's the case, that means some of these civs kits could change a lot.

We'll just have to wait and see!

I like America the most out of all the modern civs. I just love grabbing tiles with prospectors - as other civs, it can be so frustrating to have tasty resources just a tile or two out of range of your settlement. Not with America though! Then there is the insane amount of influence you get from Robber Barons - it basically lets you befriend independent powers for free. And finally, the unique quarter is awsome, too, granting loads of production, and increasing resource limit for a quick economic win.

Please, continue with these threads, bengalryan9. I enjoy reading them, and even if there aren't always plenty of replies, I learn something interesting from every discussion.

As long as there's some interest I'll keep posting them!

 

[stealth_nsk]

The question is, when a 4th age gets added, where will these modern era civs end up? My guess is that America is almost guaranteed to be in whatever the last age of the game is, but I don't know that this would necessarily be the case for *all* of the civs in the game's current "modern age". We probably don't have enough information to really guess one way or the other, I suppose, but I don't know that all of these civs are going to be grouped together in the same age for the entire duration of the game. If that's the case, that means some of these civs kits could change a lot.

We had a lot of discussions about it.

I still think there's no reason to break the game mechanics when implementing 4th age, so I expect it to have different set of civs, just some of them will continue previous ones, similar to how we currently have 3 civs for India and China. So, instead of modern age America, we'll have 4th age USA.

One of the arguments for this, is that America bonuses and uniques are focused on modern age mechanics and time period. 4th age USA will have different ones and probably different focus (economic and scientific or economic and diplomatic).

 

[UWHabs]

We had a lot of discussions about it.

I still think there's no reason to break the game mechanics when implementing 4th age, so I expect it to have different set of civs, just some of them will continue previous ones, similar to how we currently have 3 civs for India and China. So, instead of modern age America, we'll have 4th age USA.

One of the arguments for this, is that America bonuses and uniques are focused on modern age mechanics and time period. 4th age USA will have different ones and probably different focus (economic and scientific or economic and diplomatic).

You could flip the Marine to the new modern era and give them a different unit for this Industrial era, but yeah, the rest of the bonuses really do fit the 1850-1950ish range very well. I don't know the full history, but even Marines are actually a relatively older branch there (I think I've been swayed by previous civ games marines always showing up more like information era troops).

 

[pjotroos]

All caveats about modern age aside, America is one of the top three civs you can play there. Great influence, gold and production bonuses mean they can help with any victory path. And the two resource slots on their district help with one of the biggest limiting factors in modern.

 

[Chefofrats]

Could we please not let the thread go off topic, into 4th age territory?

To not be offtopic myself, I'll just say one of the few aspects of America as a civ I am not thrilled with is their unique unit. The Marine provides historical, American flavor, sure, but in-game it's a generally unexciting infantry unit.

 

[Krikkit1]

Could we please not let the thread go off topic, into 4th age territory?

To not be offtopic myself, I'll just say one of the few aspects of America as a civ I am not thrilled with is their unique unit. The Marine provides historical, American flavor, sure, but in-game it's a generally unexciting infantry unit.

Well I think that balances the extra uniqueness of their civilian one… breaking the game in a way only one other thing (Nepal’s civUU) does.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Overall it's a bit harder to assess modern civs, but America is really strong. Economic victory is the easiest peaceful victory and America with its production and extra resource slots is very powerful.

 

[Siptah]

I agree with the above. It‘s difficult to assess strengths and weaknesses in modern, as it is so short. Additionally, when you go for cultural victory, you won’t even see much of your civ anyway.

That said, America is strong for economic victory and at least average for the others. It lacks a decent UU and greater bonuses towards science and culture generation. Production is nice for the science projects though. For economic victory, having been a gold/eco civ before helps a lot. It basically means that you may not even need your UD, because you have slots from attributes and can buy harbors all around. You‘ll still benefit from America through their very useful extra gold and production from resources, prospectors, and better trade.

Their prospector is fun and gives something unique to play with. Such a unit (but with maybe only 3 tile range) would also have been fun in an earlier era.

 

[uppi]

In the modern age you first have to briefly get the ball rolling again after exploration and then go for a victory. There is no more time for empire building, so my assessment of Modern Age civs is mostly based on how much they help achieving a victory condition. An important point is how fast you can unlock the abilities of a civ. An ability deep into the civics tree will not help you that much, because by the time you get there, the game will be mostly over anyway. It is easier to justify dipping into the unique civic tree for a tier-1 civic than it is to get to the end of the tree for some ability.

With regards to that, I consider all Modern age civs to weak. Their bonuses are often too little, too late. It is hardly worth diverting from the most direct path to victory for these abilities, because they do not change enough. This is why it often plays out the same, because the civs make not enough of a difference.

That said, America is one of the best ones. It directly helps you with the economic victory condition. The extra resource slots and the gold and production on the UQ are not bad for other victory conditions as well. The prospector is nice to grab a few resources, but nothing game changing. Robber-barons is awesome for influence generation, especially if you get it early (and you can). But then it rapidly drops off, and I am not sure it even makes sense to research Wartime Manufacturing. Marines are at least slightly useful (which cannot be said of some other UUs from other civs), but nothing you would chose the civ for.

Nothing really game changing, but then no civ abilities in Modern are, so they are among the best in a sea of mediocrity.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

You could flip the Marine to the new modern era and give them a different unit for this Industrial era, but yeah, the rest of the bonuses really do fit the 1850-1950ish range very well. I don't know the full history, but even Marines are actually a relatively older branch there (I think I've been swayed by previous civ games marines always showing up more like information era troops).

While 'mechanized' marines as shown in the game are a product of World War Two, successful American amphibious operations date back to the capture of two forts in the Bahamas by Marines in 1776, less than a year after the Corps was founded! - And the landing at Vera Cruz, Mexico during the Mexican War was one of the most successful amphibious operations before 1942: an entire army landed without losing a man or animal to accident or enemy, a simply amazing accomplishment.

Another point, though, is that the Marines' traditional mission of making amphibious assaults has been considerably modified in the period after the Modern Age in the game: since 2006 it is officially referred to as "Operational Maneuver from the Sea" and includes coordinated air, sea, and land operations by navy and marine groups. The game could, therefore, include a Marine UU in a Post-Modern (Contemporary?) Age with different graphics and very different capabilities.

 

[stealth_nsk]

While 'mechanized' marines as shown in the game are a product of World War Two, successful American amphibious operations date back to the capture of two forts in the Bahamas by Marines in 1776, less than a year after the Corps was founded! - And the landing at Vera Cruz, Mexico during the Mexican War was one of the most successful amphibious operations before 1942: an entire army landed without losing a man or animal to accident or enemy, a simply amazing accomplishment.

Another point, though, is that the Marines' traditional mission of making amphibious assaults has been considerably modified in the period after the Modern Age in the game: since 2006 it is officially referred to as "Operational Maneuver from the Sea" and includes coordinated air, sea, and land operations by navy and marine groups. The game could, therefore, include a Marine UU in a Post-Modern (Contemporary?) Age with different graphics and very different capabilities.

I'd say for the 4th age some jets would better fit post WW2 USA.

 

[Krikkit1]

In the modern age you first have to briefly get the ball rolling again after exploration and then go for a victory. There is no more time for empire building, so my assessment of Modern Age civs is mostly based on how much they help achieving a victory condition. An important point is how fast you can unlock the abilities of a civ. An ability deep into the civics tree will not help you that much, because by the time you get there, the game will be mostly over anyway. It is easier to justify dipping into the unique civic tree for a tier-1 civic than it is to get to the end of the tree for some ability.

With regards to that, I consider all Modern age civs to weak. Their bonuses are often too little, too late. It is hardly worth diverting from the most direct path to victory for these abilities, because they do not change enough. This is why it often plays out the same, because the civs make not enough of a difference.

That said, America is one of the best ones. It directly helps you with the economic victory condition. The extra resource slots and the gold and production on the UQ are not bad for other victory conditions as well. The prospector is nice to grab a few resources, but nothing game changing. Robber-barons is awesome for influence generation, especially if you get it early (and you can). But then it rapidly drops off, and I am not sure it even makes sense to research Wartime Manufacturing. Marines are at least slightly useful (which cannot be said of some other UUs from other civs), but nothing you would chose the civ for.

Nothing really game changing, but then no civ abilities in Modern are, so they are among the best in a sea of mediocrity.

Which means the biggest thing they need to do is extend the Modern Age (either the Legacy paths or the Victories after them).

I'd say for the 4th age some jets would better fit post WW2 USA.

any 4th Age USA I'd assume UU...civ=Supercarrier, mil =jet

 

[Leucarum]

Modern civs are tough to contribute an evaluation to. They just don't matter for the most part. America gets boatloads influence at a point where influence matters less, and money/production which are always good... But ultimately it doesn't matter. You've won anyway. They're fine, but not a civ I'd choose to play even if I chose to play Modern.

 

[Berrern]

Please, continue with these threads, bengalryan9. I enjoy reading them, and even if there aren't always plenty of replies, I learn something interesting from every discussion.

I wholeheartedly second this! Keep up the good work @bengalryan9

 

[bengalryan9]

Modern civs are tough to contribute an evaluation to. They just don't matter for the most part.

...which is kinda what I feared these threads would turn into.

It's not *that* hard to get a feel for what the modern civs bring to the table. Unless you're strictly playing multiplayer (which most of us aren't, I'd guess), simply put a house rule or limit on yourself to make the era more interesting. Personally I tend to just choose not to beeline right for certain techs/civics... on Immortal that tends to give the AI a real shot at challenging victory, it gives me time to actually explore whatever civ I've chosen, and it makes the game a whole lot more interesting. That's a personal play choice on my part but it's simple enough for anyone to do, and it's no different from things I used to do in older civ games either (I used to avoid chopping if at all possible, for example). You could argue that doing so shouldn't be necessary and that's not something I completely disagree with it, but all we can do is play the game we've got at any given moment.

I think that there are some modern age civs - America included - that bring some fun mechanics to the table that are worth discussing, which is why I ultimately decided to continue the threads. My hope is that someday those mechanics get more of a chance to shine, and in the meantime we can talk about them. I get that a lot of people would prefer to just beeline victory and shorten the game as much as possible, and that's fine, but it's not really going to contribute all that much to these conversations either.

...and even if you *did* want to beeline victory as quick as possible, America is pretty dang good at that. Spend your influence on a science city state and choose the free techs, then take advantage of Robber Barons to befriend ever other city state on the map to slingshot yourself through the science tree towards factories (if you're worried about there not being all that many city states spawned in modern age, simply plan ahead and don't settle as aggressively in exploration... more open space = more city state spawns). Hoover up every resource you can, quickly accumulate your railroad tycoon points (you can probably outright buy a lot of your railroads and factories and you'll have plenty of slots), and win the game.