Civ Discussion - Maya

[bengalryan9]

I'm a little later in posting this today (and I already skipped the Maya once when going through the list, lol), but we've got three antiquity age civs to discuss and next up is the Maya.

Maya are a diplomatic and scientific civilization with a tropical and vegetated starting bias. Their associated wonder is Mundo Perdido (+1 happiness and science on tropical terrain in the settlement). They automatically unlock Hawaii and Inca in the exploration age and Mexico in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Skies of Itzamna, which gives +0.5 science to the palace for every adjacent vegetated tile.
Their unique military unit is the Hul'che, a slinger/archer replacement that can both see through vegetated terrain, and travel through vegetated terrain without movement penalties.
Their unique civilian unit is the Jaguar Slayer, a scout with 20 CS and that can initiate combat, which also has no movement penalties in rough, vegetated, and wet terrain, AND can lay jaguar traps.
Their unique buildings are the Jalaw (+3 base happiness, and bonus culture for quarter and wonder adjacencies) and the K'uh Nah (+3 base science, +2 more science if built on vegetated land, and +1 bonus science for adjacent wonders), which together make up their unique quarter the Uwaybil K'uh, which gives +5% production in the settlement every time you finish researching a technology.

Maya civics are:
Rain of Chaac - unlocks the K'uh Nah, the Pet Kot tradition, and gives altars +1 science for every adjacent vegetated tile
Lords of Xibalba - unlocks the Jalaw, the Miracle of the Twins tradition, and gives both unique units stealth in vegetated tiles
Calendar Round - after completing a technology gives +10% of the cost in culture, and after completing a civic gives +10% of the cost in science and unlocks Mundo Perdido, and at mastery grants the Tzolk'in and Haab' traditions and +1 settlement limit

Maya traditions are:
Pet Kot - +1 science on vegetated terrain in cities
Miracle of the Twins - all units gain Poison, which gives +3 CS against wounded enemy units
Tzolk'in - +2 science on happiness buildings
Haab' - +2 culture on happiness buildings

The Maya seem to be considered one of the best civs (and for good reason), but what do YOU think? Do you agree? Would you change anything? Should they get hit by the nerf bat again? Which leaders pair well with them, and who are you looking to transition to in future ages?

 

[Citron]

What do jaguar traps do?

 

[reddishrecue]

You know what good question. I think they just drop 20 hp on an enemy unit that lands on them when placed by a jaguar slayer.

 

[bengalryan9]

What do jaguar traps do?

You know what good question. I think they just drop 20 hp on an enemy unit that lands on them when placed by a jaguar slayer.

Pretty sure they also set the units movement points to zero as well, though I haven't played as Maya in a bit.

 

[Lord Lakely]

"which together make up their unique quarter the Uwaybil K'uh, which gives +5% production in the settlement every time you finish researching a technology." and this is why they're the strongest Civ in the game. The traditions that give bonus culture and science on happiness buildings are ALSO excellent, but the real moneymaker is the quarter.

It's a LOT of production and allows you to finish wonders very quickly in Exploration and Modern.

It's a sign of the Maya's strength that it's not a question of "which leader wants to be them", but more like "what leader DOESN'T want to play the Mayans in Antiquity?". Only a select few prefer to be something else (Baroque Freddy for example, who really wants to be Rome or Egypt), and even for those leaders Maya is an above average choice.

 

[Leucarum]

Ageless science buildings and free production are going to be very hard to balance. Maya definitely are the top dogs in Civ7. Couple that with excellent unique units, traditions which hold up for the rest of the game... The good news is that they are fun to play, so probably the balance skew in their favour doesn't feel like something to complain about.

 

[Civinator]

"the Uwaybil K'uh, which gives +5% production in the settlement every time you finish researching a technology."

This is insane. Game balance, bye bye.

 

[UWHabs]

Their challenge is really just "how many cities can I get the UQ in". If you actually got 4 cities with the UQ (I only got 3 last time I played as them), effectively you're getting 20% of your science back as production. Which when combined with a civ who gets a natural boost to science, is just super OP.

And in reality, it's even better than 20%, because when you chain it with free techs (like from suzerains), you get the production from there too.

The only downside is that from what I could tell in my last game, the production boost doesn't chain with the culture/science projects, so once you run out of things to build, you more or less have to just build unit after unit until you get Erdene Zuu and can build cavalry for culture.

Maybe a decent nerf balance on them would be to go back to giving them a bigger production boost, but only have it apply to masteries, for example. That would at least prevent you from chaining it with future techs, and would more or less force you to skip all the tech masteries until you got your cities online. So at least a little cost/benefit strategy with them.

 

[Krikkit1]

Their challenge is really just "how many cities can I get the UQ in". If you actually got 4 cities with the UQ (I only got 3 last time I played as them), effectively you're getting 20% of your science back as production. Which when combined with a civ who gets a natural boost to science, is just super OP.

And in reality, it's even better than 20%, because when you chain it with free techs (like from suzerains), you get the production from there too.

The only downside is that from what I could tell in my last game, the production boost doesn't chain with the culture/science projects, so once you run out of things to build, you more or less have to just build unit after unit until you get Erdene Zuu and can build cavalry for culture.

Maybe a decent nerf balance on them would be to go back to giving them a bigger production boost, but only have it apply to masteries, for example. That would at least prevent you from chaining it with future techs, and would more or less force you to skip all the tech masteries until you got your cities online. So at least a little cost/benefit strategy with them.

Another option is to make the 5% production based on a civic…(maybe the base quarter gives +1 production ?per age?to science buildings)

 

[sixty4half]

Pretty sure they also set the units movement points to zero as well, though I haven't played as Maya in a bit.

They do 25 damage and stop the unit. They also must be placed on a Flat or Vegetated tile that does not contain a Resource or River.

 

[Navelgazer]

So yeah, what to say about Maya?

For those uninitiated to the game: Skies of Itzamna sure seems like a weak Unique Ability, huh? Han's UA gives them a free population in every settlement they found, Persia's gives you free Combat Strength for all infantry units when attacking, Greece gives you a flat 3 free Influence - with Maya you get, best case, +3 science in your capital, and honestly, you probably won't get that much. And it only applies to the Palace - not even city halls! Very possibly the weakest UA in Antiquity.

And that's basically the joke - because everything else about Maya, that's not as prominently displayed on the selection screen, makes them the strongest civ in Antiquity and probably in the game (only Abbasid even potentially gives them a run for their money there, I'd say.)

Jaguar Slayer - It's a scout that can actually fight back a bit. And doesn't care about most terrain. And can lay traps. Honestly, I forget about the traps more often than I should, but that's just gravy on this unit (and allows it to still have some use late in the age once you've revealed all the map that you can.) My favorite thing about it is that, since it has combat strength at all, it's the only Antiquity Scout that can clear an IP. This comes up with me somewhat regularly, where a hostile IP has left itself open for a turn or two, but the scout I have in the area can't take advantage because it has no little "X" button to press. Well, the Jaguar Slayer has that little X button, and it can save a lot of headaches!

Hul'che - It's a ranged unit with better movement and sight. Ranged Units are already my preferred specialization in this game, and these are better than normal.

Jalaw - Happiness and Culture. Culture is probably the most valuable yield, especially in Antiquity, and a Unique culture-generating building is nothing to sneeze at. getting the adjacency from quarters AND wonders is also great for an ageless building.

K'uh Nah - Science and science and more science! Also ageless! And remember to always pair it with the Jalaw for that...

Uwaybil K'uh - OMG. This is the most busted quarter in the game. Mechanic in the game? Line of code in the game? Whenever you complete a tech, however you do so, you turn 5% of the Beakers cost of the tech into Hammers in any city that's got one of these quarters built. This is a MASSIVE bonus, allowing you to spam wonders like no one other than Egypt can, especially when paired with...

Calendar Round - Every Civic you complete gives you 10% of the cost back as Science. Every Tech you complete gives you 10% of the cost back as Culture. This snowballs very quickly.

Their traditions are good, and once you've gotten through their civic tree you've got two great UUs who also have stealth in vegetated terrain and have the poison ability, and yield bonuses tossed around like confetti. The only knock you can make against Maya is that they don't get any extra settlement limit bumps. I've never heard anyone complain about that though - Maya's so thoroughly good that it's just not a concern.

 

[Sagax]

Ah, yes - the 2012 of civ-specific discussions, because it ends them all. They’re still top tier, still strong, and still leave no room for debate. Honestly, I wonder how FXS didn’t consider that giving the UQ a permanent percentage-based bonus will not make it outperform any flat bonus they could come up with for other civs.

On another note, their “diplomatic” designation still puzzles me a bit. I guess it’s because of happiness bonuses similar to Chola - but how exactly does happiness play into diplomacy, other than resistance to war weariness? Having played around with happiness across all civs released so far, I feel like it’s much more geared towards expansionism.

 

[Krikkit1]

Ah, yes - the 2012 of civ-specific discussions, because it ends them all. They’re still top tier, still strong, and still leave no room for debate. Honestly, I wonder how FXS didn’t consider that giving the UQ a permanent percentage-based bonus will not make it outperform any flat bonus they could come up with for other civs.

On another note, their “diplomatic” designation still puzzles me a bit. I guess it’s because of happiness bonuses similar to Chola - but how exactly does happiness play into diplomacy, other than resistance to war weariness? Having played around with happiness across all civs released so far, I feel like it’s much more geared towards expansionism.

Diplomatic Attribute includes internal “diplomacy” (happiness, policy slots, etc.)

 

[bengalryan9]

"which together make up their unique quarter the Uwaybil K'uh, which gives +5% production in the settlement every time you finish researching a technology." and this is why they're the strongest Civ in the game. The traditions that give bonus culture and science on happiness buildings are ALSO excellent, but the real moneymaker is the quarter.

It's a LOT of production and allows you to finish wonders very quickly in Exploration and Modern.

It's a sign of the Maya's strength that it's not a question of "which leader wants to be them", but more like "what leader DOESN'T want to play the Mayans in Antiquity?". Only a select few prefer to be something else (Baroque Freddy for example, who really wants to be Rome or Egypt), and even for those leaders Maya is an above average choice.

This is insane. Game balance, bye bye.

It used to be even more, lol. It's already been nerfed once IIRC.

 

[bengalryan9]

Maya are strong, obviously, but I think they're fine. They're just a really well designed civ with a bunch of aspects that all come together very well to create a satisfying whole. I don't think I'd nerf them any more because I think you'd be at risk of taking away what makes them so fun to begin with... this is a case where I think the goal should be to buff other civs so that they're more like the Maya as opposed to nerfing the Maya so that they're more like other civs.

They do have a weakness in their kit - they have no bonuses to food or gold, at all, and that will slow them down a bit. It's not something that completely kneecaps them, obviously, but the lack of food means they're likely to get off to a slower start and the lack of gold can make it harder to get as many cities as you might like to have to really take advantage of their unique quarters. I found that in both games where I played as Maya I was really struggling to get the gold to buy everything I wanted to buy. Again, I don't think this is a *huge* weakness, but I do think it serves as a bit of a check on their power in other areas.

Jaguar Slayers are fun, and it sounds like people are sleeping on Jaguar Traps a little. Find choke points along your borders and put drop traps there and your enemies will have a really rough time trying to attack you, *especially* if those chokepoints are vegetated and your unique ranged units can start peppering them with arrows from afar. They're even fun to drop in the middle of nowhere just to troll your opponents and to protect spots you might be racing to settle. Unique abilities and traits like these are why the Jaguar Slayer and Burning Arrow are my favorites UUs in the game.

 

[Stepbr]

I once got five Uwaybil K'uhs playing as Maya in a deity game -- back when it was a 15% production boost! Happy days...

One perk of Uwaybil K'uhs is that some of the cities you build them in are likely to be towns at the start of Exploration... which means the 5% production boost comes to you as gold. Useful!

I think the Hul'che is incredibly useful too. In my current game (Isabella as Maya) Confucius forward-settled me quite outrageously... My Hul'che made light work of getting that town into Maya.

Overall Maya is like one of those kids at school who always comes top in every subject, is captain of the school soccer team, is always picked for choir solos, and who was at the front of the queue when God gave out good looks. Yet you can't actually bring yourself to be jealous of them because they're so nice too!!

 

[MutilationWave]

I've only played them once and it was before the nerf. It was my second game and they were insane. I'm trying to get through all the leaders and civs I haven't tried yet though so I haven't played again.

 

[Leucarum]

They are clearly too good... But I enjoy them too much to be mad about it.

 

[evonannoredars]

They do have a weakness in their kit - they have no bonuses to food or gold, at all, and that will slow them down a bit. It's not something that completely kneecaps them, obviously, but the lack of food means they're likely to get off to a slower start and the lack of gold can make it harder to get as many cities as you might like to have to really take advantage of their unique quarters. I found that in both games where I played as Maya I was really struggling to get the gold to buy everything I wanted to buy. Again, I don't think this is a *huge* weakness, but I do think it serves as a bit of a check on their power in other areas.

V good point here, agree that I've felt they're weaker in terms of expansion.

 

[evonannoredars]

Going to go off track a little here and talk a little about their design from a historical perspective rather than a gameplay one. I'm only a Mayanist in training but I hopefully know enough to provide an interesting and mostly accurate insight.

• Uwaybil K'uh seems to be an odd name, the Civilopedia entries for it and the K'uh Nah seem to suggest it is a subcomponent of the K'uh Nah rather than vice versa. However I'm not familiar with either of the terms from academic literature, yet what it represents works very well. Temples (the K'uh Nah) and ballcourts (Jalaw) are staples of ceremonial centres all across Mesoamerica, which means they aren't uniquely Maya in that regard, but I prefer more generic UQs to ones based on a single pair of irl buildings (eg. Greece).
• The design of the K'uh Nah model is kinda peculiar, I'm unfamiliar with any specific structure it could be based on and it feels like whoever designed it was not constrained by actual temple designs.
• The Jalaw design is much more accurate, with sloped sides and the Ɪ-shaped area. The one thing I'm uncertain of is if the hoop goals on the sides are accurate - I don't know if they were a common feature in classic Maya ballcourts. What I do really like is that the Jalaw is unlocked with the Lords of Xibalba civic, likely a reference to the Popol Vuh. In this creation myth, the ballgame is central to many interactions with the Lords of Xibalba, first as part of One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu's defeat by them and later as part of the Hero Twins' (Hunahpu and Xbalanque, sons of One Hunahpu) plan to get revenge against them.
• The Lords of Xibalba civic also unlocks the Miracle of the Twins tradition, so the Popol Vuh theming continues. The 'miracle' referenced could be a bunch of things though, I can't see any obvious reference that connects the name with the poison damage effect.
• The Calendar Round civic is likewise a thematic package, with the Tzolk'in and Haab' traditions. A Calendar Round occurs once the combination of dates in the 365 day long Haab' and 260 day long Tzolk'in repeats, which occurs once every 18,980 days (or 52 years). The culture-from-science and science-from-culture civic effects feel very fitting in this civic.
• The Skies of Itzamna ability and Rain of Chaac civic don't seem to have any specific references regarding their effects that I know of.
• Similar to the Uwaybil K'uh, the Hul'che works as a unique unit for the Maya, but could also be a unique unit for most Mesoamerican civs.
• The Jaguar Slayer civilopedia entry states that the unit is a reference to their methods for hunting Jaguars, but I don't know enough about that to comment on it's accuracy.
• Mundo Perdido is the name of the site, the pyramid we see as the main part of the wonder is the Lost World Pyramid/Structure 5C-54. I'd never heard of it before Civ 7, but it seems a visually interesting enough pick and matches the time period (whereas the series staple Maya pyramid of Chichen Itza would not have been appropriate for Antiquity).
• Finally, something I've complained about before but will continue to do so because it's a letdown in a design that's otherwise got some really nice cultural details: the icon. The feathered serpent. It's an odd icon for starters (what's that circle behind the head? an ear?), but the issue isn't that it's a generic mesoamerican symbol - it's a generic symbol in the rest of mesoamerica, instead it rarely showed up in the Classic Maya world until the heavily Toltec-influenced Chichen Itza.

Final verdict: a very nicely designed civ overall, both in terms of history/culture and gameplay.