Civ Discussion - Meiji Japan

[bengalryan9]

Next up on our march through the Modern Age is Meiji Japan. The Meiji Japanese are a militaristic and scientific civilization with a starting bias towards grassland and coastal terrain. Their associated wonder is the Dogo Onsen, which gives a base +4 happiness as well as a free population in the settlement is built every time a celebration is triggered. They can be unlocked by playing an age as either Hawai'i or Majapahit, by choosing either Himiko, Jose Rizal, or Trung Trac as your leader, or by improving 3 tea resources.

Their unique ability is Goisshin, which grants science equal to +50% of the production cost when overbuilding.
They have two unique military units - the Mikasa is a dreadnought replacement that automatically re-spawns in the nearest settlement at 50% health when defeated, and the Zero which is a fighter replacement that gets +4 CS against other fighters.
Their unique buildings are the Ginko (base +5 gold with bonus gold for adjacent gold buildings or wonders) and the Jukogyo (base +5 production with bonus production for every adjacent coastal tile or wonder), which together make up the unique quarter the Zaibatsu, which gives buildings in adjacent tiles +1 gold and +1 production as well as gives the settlement +1 resource slot.

Meiji civics:
Bunmei Kaika - unlocks the Jukogyo, the Dogo Onsen, and the Fukoku Kyohei tradition, and gives +50% production towards military and production buildings
Oath in Five Articles - unlocks the Ginko, the O-yatoi Gaikokujin tradition, and gives +50% production towards science buildings
Supreme War Council - unlocks the Shusei Kokubo tradition and gives +25% production towards naval and air units
Kantai Kessen - unlocks the Kokutai tradition and gives +3 CS to units on or adjacent to coastal terrain

Meiji traditions:
Fukoku Kyohei - when training air or naval units receive +25% of the production cost in science
O-yatoi Gaikokujin - +1 production and science from specialists
Shusei Kokubo - military buildings receive a production adjacency from coastal tiles
Kokutai - +6 CS for air units attacking a unit that is already engaged with a naval unit

Thought on Meiji Japan? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Do you find them fun, or rather dull? What parts of the kit do you like the most, and would do you think could warrant some changes? What leaders and other civs pair well with them? How many posts will it take in this thread before someone says how they can't really judge these civs because of the way the modern age currently plays? Tune in and find out!

 

[Chefofrats]

Meiji Japan is my favorite modern choice, along with America. I like their unique quarter - production (also from the coastal military buildings) is always nice, and an extra resource slot makes the economic victory quicker.

I've never had a chance to use their military kit - I generally avoid conflict in the modern era, because with how boring it is I want it to be over quicky, and micromanaging a war extends it unreasonably.

I can't recall which leaders I played when picking Meiji Japan. With how versatile the civ is, it probably works well with any leader.

 

[pjotroos]

One of my favourites in modern, too. Really elegant design, which suits modern age well. You can use your production to generate science, you can use your culture to generate production, and you can specifically use modern military units for a bit more science gain. All in all, they have two clear areas of strength, and they are tangibly strong in those. Add in good district and great music, and there's really not much to dislike.

The only thing, really, is that their wonder is nothing special, and there's no special reason to build it as Japan. I still have vivid memories of its utterly broken version on release supercharging your towns, though, and where we are is probably for the best.

 

[Leucarum]

They or Prussia were my go-to choices when I was unlocking momentos for my leaders.

It's a very straightforward design. Nothing really stands out, nothing's really wrong. They're a bit bland? There are worse sins in modern.

 

[marius_kaparius]

I remember having a lot of fun building a Navy with Meiji and finding a brutal war against Harriet Tubman and her Marines. She just would not accept any peace offers.

 

[Bootstrapbilly]

I like the combat bonuses and the flavour for naval and air combined arms.

Enjoyed going Isabella, Chola into Japan and maxing out on % production bonuses and spamming Mikasas and crashing them into opponent coastal cities with reckless abandon. Churning out science.

I'd like to do it again now we have Battersea Power Station too. Wonder how multiple units from Battersea powerstation contributes to the science from Naval unit production.

 

[uppi]

Science and Production, with a bit of gold on top. Quite nice for what you usually want to do in the Modern age. The bonuses are not overly strong, but they help. I think they are the best Modern civ to choose for a science victory, but they are also good at economic and military victories.

The Mikasa is mostly good, because it has 5 movement. I am not entirely sure this is intentional. But if it had only 3 movement, the respawn ability would lose value - the age might be over the time they rejoin the battle.

The Zero is useless in singleplayer right now. I can see how it might be useful in a protracted air battle, but those simply don't happen currently.

 

[queenpea]

Big fan of the UQ and Mikasa unit.

 

[bengalryan9]

Meiji Japan is fine, I guess. Obviously they get a ton of production bonuses and they can easily turn that production into science, and that's strong. I just find them pretty unexciting. Nothing here jumps out at me and changes how I'm likely to play the game, so they feel very vanilla to me. There's nothing wrong with that - they can certainly compete and there is a place for civs like this, I just don't find them particularly interesting. If your goal is simply to finish the game as fast as possible I'd imagine they fit that bill pretty well, though.

Also not really a fan of modern age civs not having a true unique civilian unit, either. Japan's not alone in that regard but it always feels like I'm missing something.

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

In my opinion, Meiji Japan is probably the civ that is most desperately in need of a nerf (yes Mississippi's Burning Arrow is broken and a nerf is needed there, but there are also genuinely a lot of excellent Antiquity Civs). I find Meiji Japan is overcentralizing in a way that discourages you from playing other similar civs in games where you have multiple options. Its base ability that provides Science equal to 50% of a building's production cost can really trivialize Science victories especially when starting as Maya (which if you are playing single-player is not a difficult combination to get). If this were Meiji Japan's entire ability, it would still be too strong. That said, Meiji Japan gets more than that. O-yatoi Gaikokujin provides a good amount of extra production in the very Cities that you are likely targeting to build Science projects. The Zaibatsu Unique Quarter adds even more production and a resource slot so that you can get even more production in your project city. Then you get the Mikasa unit which respawns for free the first time it dies which is situational, but broken when the situation calls for it (Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, which has a very similar ability is not ok in its current state either).

One of the fun things about the Modern Age is that most of the civs, have a broken thing about them, so you may be asking why single out Meiji Japan here? In Meiji Japan's case, their abilities don't just trivialize a single victory path, but can be put to use incredibly effectively in others. Meiji Japan can easily pivot to an Economic (free techs from the base ability + extra resource slots in every city) or Military victory (spamming Mikasa units) if needed. Such a pivot is not so easy for other civs with similar abilities. For example, if you look at Buganda (whose ability can be similarly broken feeling), it is quite bit more difficult to pivot to a Cultural victory if you started by attempting a Military victory (as Explorers are quite expensive and there is a premium on being first). Similarly, pivoting to a Military victory from a Culture victory can be tricky as well since you would already have put a lot of investment into your Explorers which are there to do one thing and can't be used for military conquest. In Meiji Japan's case, it is never wrong to gold buy Schoolhouses and Laboratories since they are powerful for all victory types but Culture. While I only really play singleplayer games, I suspect this makes it quite difficult to stop Meiji Japan players in multiplayer with anything other than outright war (which the civ is still quite strong in).

I feel like if their base ability read as "Provides Science equal to 25% of a building's production cost" there is a chance that the civ would still be broken (albeit less so), which to me means that it is a very safe change for Firaxis to make here to help improve the balance of modern age civs.

 

[uppi]

In my opinion, Meiji Japan is probably the civ that is most desperately in need of a nerf (yes Mississippi's Burning Arrow is broken and a nerf is needed there, but there are also genuinely a lot of excellent Antiquity Civs). I find Meiji Japan is overcentralizing in a way that discourages you from playing other similar civs in games where you have multiple options. Its base ability that provides Science equal to 50% of a building's production cost can really trivialize Science victories especially when starting as Maya (which if you are playing single-player is not a difficult combination to get). If this were Meiji Japan's entire ability, it would still be too strong. That said, Meiji Japan gets more than that. O-yatoi Gaikokujin provides a good amount of extra production in the very Cities that you are likely targeting to build Science projects. The Zaibatsu Unique Quarter adds even more production and a resource slot so that you can get even more production in your project city. Then you get the Mikasa unit which respawns for free the first time it dies which is situational, but broken when the situation calls for it (Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, which has a very similar ability is not ok in its current state either).

One of the fun things about the Modern Age is that most of the civs, have a broken thing about them, so you may be asking why single out Meiji Japan here? In Meiji Japan's case, their abilities don't just trivialize a single victory path, but can be put to use incredibly effectively in others. Meiji Japan can easily pivot to an Economic (free techs from the base ability + extra resource slots in every city) or Military victory (spamming Mikasa units) if needed. Such a pivot is not so easy for other civs with similar abilities. For example, if you look at Buganda (whose ability can be similarly broken feeling), it is quite bit more difficult to pivot to a Cultural victory if you started by attempting a Military victory (as Explorers are quite expensive and there is a premium on being first). Similarly, pivoting to a Military victory from a Culture victory can be tricky as well since you would already have put a lot of investment into your Explorers which are there to do one thing and can't be used for military conquest. In Meiji Japan's case, it is never wrong to gold buy Schoolhouses and Laboratories since they are powerful for all victory types but Culture. While I only really play singleplayer games, I suspect this makes it quite difficult to stop Meiji Japan players in multiplayer with anything other than outright war (which the civ is still quite strong in).

I feel like if their base ability read as "Provides Science equal to 25% of a building's production cost" there is a chance that the civ would still be broken (albeit less so), which to me means that it is a very safe change for Firaxis to make here to help improve the balance of modern age civs.

I completely disagree. All modern civs (including Japan) are too weak anyway. It is hardly worth dipping in the unique civic tree for most civs, anyway.

Hitting the one civ that actually does something useful with the nerf hammer is not the solution. Instead, the other civs should be buffed to reach at least the power level of Japan.

 

[Krikkit1]

I completely disagree. All modern civs (including Japan) are too weak anyway. It is hardly worth dipping in the unique civic tree for most civs, anyway.

Hitting the one civ that actually does something useful with the nerf hammer is not the solution. Instead, the other civs should be buffed to reach at least the power level of Japan.

I think that is more an issue of the overall gameplay of Modern being weak.

They shouldn’t nerf Meijii, but they also shouldn’t buff other civs until Modern has been improved.

 

[m_mus]

I find their UA a tad overpowered.

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

I completely disagree. All modern civs (including Japan) are too weak anyway. It is hardly worth dipping in the unique civic tree for most civs, anyway.

Hitting the one civ that actually does something useful with the nerf hammer is not the solution. Instead, the other civs should be buffed to reach at least the power level of Japan.

You make a great point that for most civs it is not worth going into the unique civic tree, but I would argue that has nothing to do with what is in those trees, but has more to do with the lack of efficiency of going for the unique civic tree due to how Modern Victory Paths are designed. The only victory types where it makes a reasonable amount of sense to go into the unique civic tree early are Science and Economic and even then, you often just want to beeline Idealogy for the massive bonuses to Specialists and the Attribute Points. The overall design of the Modern Age needs more thought to ensure that the age isn't over in the blink of an eye (had a game that I wrapped up last night that ended on turn 28 with a Science Victory despite not even using a leader with any Science bonuses).

The reason why I am proposing nerfing Meiji Japan is that there is often no reason not to pick them if you are looking at a Science Victory. Prussia and Russia were both designed with the intent of being good Science Victory civs and yet I don't think it is at all reasonable (balance-wise) to ever select them over Meiji Japan even in scenarios where Prussia and Russia are intended to be favored (such as when the world is at war with you or when in Tundra terrain). +2 Science on Resources or +15% Science on Tundra cities are bonuses that should feel powerful, but both pale in comparison to the Unique Ability of Meiji Japan (which Meiji Japan doesn't even need to go into the Civic Tree for). That to me speaks to a big issue where one civ is overcentralizing and where nerfs are called for even despite the problems of the Modern Age.

 

[incroc]

In my opinion, Meiji Japan is probably the civ that is most desperately in need of a nerf (yes Mississippi's Burning Arrow is broken and a nerf is needed there, but there are also genuinely a lot of excellent Antiquity Civs). I find Meiji Japan is overcentralizing in a way that discourages you from playing other similar civs in games where you have multiple options. Its base ability that provides Science equal to 50% of a building's production cost can really trivialize Science victories especially when starting as Maya (which if you are playing single-player is not a difficult combination to get). If this were Meiji Japan's entire ability, it would still be too strong. That said, Meiji Japan gets more than that. O-yatoi Gaikokujin provides a good amount of extra production in the very Cities that you are likely targeting to build Science projects. The Zaibatsu Unique Quarter adds even more production and a resource slot so that you can get even more production in your project city. Then you get the Mikasa unit which respawns for free the first time it dies which is situational, but broken when the situation calls for it (Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, which has a very similar ability is not ok in its current state either).

One of the fun things about the Modern Age is that most of the civs, have a broken thing about them, so you may be asking why single out Meiji Japan here? In Meiji Japan's case, their abilities don't just trivialize a single victory path, but can be put to use incredibly effectively in others. Meiji Japan can easily pivot to an Economic (free techs from the base ability + extra resource slots in every city) or Military victory (spamming Mikasa units) if needed. Such a pivot is not so easy for other civs with similar abilities. For example, if you look at Buganda (whose ability can be similarly broken feeling), it is quite bit more difficult to pivot to a Cultural victory if you started by attempting a Military victory (as Explorers are quite expensive and there is a premium on being first). Similarly, pivoting to a Military victory from a Culture victory can be tricky as well since you would already have put a lot of investment into your Explorers which are there to do one thing and can't be used for military conquest. In Meiji Japan's case, it is never wrong to gold buy Schoolhouses and Laboratories since they are powerful for all victory types but Culture. While I only really play singleplayer games, I suspect this makes it quite difficult to stop Meiji Japan players in multiplayer with anything other than outright war (which the civ is still quite strong in).

I feel like if their base ability read as "Provides Science equal to 25% of a building's production cost" there is a chance that the civ would still be broken (albeit less so), which to me means that it is a very safe change for Firaxis to make here to help improve the balance of modern age civs.

I think so too, the Modern Era goes so fast that having an immediately available number of free techs from overbuilding is over the top.

That said, there are probably more significant problems with the Modern Era than Japan.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think so too, the Modern Era goes so fast that having an immediately available number of free techs from overbuilding is over the top.

That said, there are probably more significant problems with the Modern Era than Japan.

Exactly if they increased the cost of all of the Modern Era Techs by ~50-100%, then that would extend modern and as a side effect nerf Japan a bit.

 

[uppi]

I think that is more an issue of the overall gameplay of Modern being weak.

They shouldn’t nerf Meijii, but they also shouldn’t buff other civs until Modern has been improved.

Yes, but part of the problems of Modern age gameplay is exactly that civ effects are too weak. Even if the goal stays the same, it would still make a a difference if we had civs that had their own way of getting there. Just by buffing all civs, the Modern age could be made more interesting. Of course, Modern also needs rework overall but we could start with the civs (or start with the rest, but they have to start somewhere)

You make a great point that for most civs it is not worth going into the unique civic tree, but I would argue that has nothing to do with what is in those trees, but has more to do with the lack of efficiency of going for the unique civic tree due to how Modern Victory Paths are designed. The only victory types where it makes a reasonable amount of sense to go into the unique civic tree early are Science and Economic and even then, you often just want to beeline Idealogy for the massive bonuses to Specialists and the Attribute Points. The overall design of the Modern Age needs more thought to ensure that the age isn't over in the blink of an eye (had a game that I wrapped up last night that ended on turn 28 with a Science Victory despite not even using a leader with any Science bonuses).

The reason why I am proposing nerfing Meiji Japan is that there is often no reason not to pick them if you are looking at a Science Victory. Prussia and Russia were both designed with the intent of being good Science Victory civs and yet I don't think it is at all reasonable (balance-wise) to ever select them over Meiji Japan even in scenarios where Prussia and Russia are intended to be favored (such as when the world is at war with you or when in Tundra terrain). +2 Science on Resources or +15% Science on Tundra cities are bonuses that should feel powerful, but both pale in comparison to the Unique Ability of Meiji Japan (which Meiji Japan doesn't even need to go into the Civic Tree for). That to me speaks to a big issue where one civ is overcentralizing and where nerfs are called for even despite the problems of the Modern Age.

I agree, that Meiji Japan overshadows most civs, but I firmly disagree that the solution is to nerf Japan until it melts back into the barely-noticeable pack. We need reasons to play other civs. Take the reasons to play Meiji away and your choice makes no difference anyway.

Prussia is actually a bad example, because they actually have reasons going for them. But Russia is just bad. So buff Russia until you might choose them over Meiji.

 

[Krikkit1]

Yes, but part of the problems of Modern age gameplay is exactly that civ effects are too weak. Even if the goal stays the same, it would still make a a difference if we had civs that had their own way of getting there. Just by buffing all civs, the Modern age could be made more interesting. Of course, Modern also needs rework overall but we could start with the civs (or start with the rest, but they have to start somewhere)




I agree, that Meiji Japan overshadows most civs, but I firmly disagree that the solution is to nerf Japan until it melts back into the barely-noticeable pack. We need reasons to play other civs. Take the reasons to play Meiji away and your choice makes no difference anyway.

Prussia is actually a bad example, because they actually have reasons going for them. But Russia is just bad. So buff Russia until you might choose them over Meiji.

Buffing civs must be done individually per civ. Extending Modern itself makes all civs better and helps see which ones actually need buffing v just more time.

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

I agree, that Meiji Japan overshadows most civs, but I firmly disagree that the solution is to nerf Japan until it melts back into the barely-noticeable pack. We need reasons to play other civs. Take the reasons to play Meiji away and your choice makes no difference anyway.

Prussia is actually a bad example, because they actually have reasons going for them. But Russia is just bad. So buff Russia until you might choose them over Meiji.

Receiving a nerf does not necessarily mean they will fade into the pack. The Maya are still agreed to be a top 3 Antiquity Civ, but their nerf was important to creating more interesting decisions than just picking Maya because you want Science. I have said elsewhere that I think it is unrealistic to have a perfectly balanced Civ game given that everyone plays the game differently with different settings (even mods that balance Civ games tend to balance around an agreed upon list of settings). What I do think is important is that the game needs to provide the player with meaningful choices. Meiji Japan in its current state removes that interesting choice of which Modern Civ to pick for a science focused game from the player and makes it a simple choice of do you play optimally or not?

 

[uppi]

Receiving a nerf does not necessarily mean they will fade into the pack. The Maya are still agreed to be a top 3 Antiquity Civ, but their nerf was important to creating more interesting decisions than just picking Maya because you want Science. I have said elsewhere that I think it is unrealistic to have a perfectly balanced Civ game given that everyone plays the game differently with different settings (even mods that balance Civ games tend to balance around an agreed upon list of settings). What I do think is important is that the game needs to provide the player with meaningful choices. Meiji Japan in its current state removes that interesting choice of which Modern Civ to pick for a science focused game from the player and makes it a simple choice of do you play optimally or not?

Again, the lack of choices is not because Meiji Japan is too strong (I'd say, the Maya UQ is stronger for science victory than what Meiji has to offer), it is because there are no other options. If you nerfed Meiji to the point where they would not be the best choice for science victory, they would have barely any bonus left. The only other nominally scientific civ is Russia, which simply is not a good choice for optimizing a science victory. It would be a mistake to drag Meiji down to the level of Russia. Instead Russia needs to be buffed (and we need some other scientific civilizations)