Civ Discussion - Mongolia

[bengalryan9]

Our next civ is Mongolia as we continue our march through the Exploration Age. The Mongolians are an expansionist and militaristic civilization with a starting bias towards horses. Their associated wonder is Erdene Zuu, which gives a base +4 culture as well as 25% of any cavalry unit you train’s cost in culture. They can be unlocked by playing as Han, Persia, Genghis Khan, Confucious, Xerxes, or Catherine, or by improving 3 horses or having 3 siege units. They automatically unlock Qing and Russia in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Bokh, which gives you a free cavalry unit anytime you capture a settlement but -50% production towards settlers. It also gives extra points towards the military legacy path for capture settlements in the homeland.
Their unique military unit is the Keshig, a heavy archer replacement with +1 movement that heals 15HP after defeating an enemy unit. It both exerts a zone of control and counts as a cavalry unit.
Their unique civilian unit is the Noyan, an army commander that grants +50% flanking to cavalry units in the command radius.
Their unique infrastructure is the Ortoo, which gives a base +5 gold and restores the movement of units that move on to the tile.

Mongolian civics:
Ulus – unlocks the Ortoo, the Gerege tradition, and at mastery gives +1 settlement limit and makes it so that captured settlements don’t cost 2x as much to convert to cities
Four Hounds – grants a free Noyan in the capital and gives +1 settlement limit, and at mastery unlocks the Baghatur tradition, gives +1 movement to cavalry, and gives another +1 settlement limit
Yassa – unlocks the Jarlig tradition, gives the Ortoo +4 gold in settlements not founded by you, and at mastery unlocks the Erdene Zuu and gives another +1 settlement limit

Mongolian traditions:
Gerege – gives +4 happiness in settlements not founded by you for each resource assigned to them
Baghatur - +5 CS on cavalry units
Jarlig – gives +25% production in cities not founded by you

Thoughts on the Mongols? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Anything you’d like to see changed? Do they have the best music in the game for the second time in a row (yes)? Have you ever gone for a cultural or scientific victory as them for fun? What do you think?

 

[bengalryan9]

Mongolia is the only civ in the game I have yet to play as they just do not fit my preferred playstyle at all. The one time I decided to go down the military route I went with a pre-nerf Bulgaria instead and just haven't really gone that route since in order to try Mongolia. There's a lot to like about them - I especially like the unique path towards legacy points which I hope we get more examples of - and I can attest that they can make for a scary neighbor, but I've got no first hand experiences with them to share.

I understand why the Mongols always play the way that they play but I do wish we'd get a version of them that had just a *little* bit more flexibility, lol. We kind of got that with Kublai Khan in Civ 6, I guess.

I do love seeing them show up in any game that I play just to hear that music, though. It's amazing.

 

[Siptah]

Mongols are fun to try out, even if only for playing a cavalry mini-game, where you zoom around the map to fulfill your unique legacy. It‘s too much of a one-trick pony for me, and I have only played them once. I want to do a Pangaea - Mongolia run at some point though. Maybe with. Napoleon to make the movement bonuses even more drastic?

As for strength: I don‘t usually play MP in civ, and haven‘t played a single MP game in 7. But if I do someday, the one civ I don‘t want to see as my neighbor are the Mongols.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

I'm curious to know what people think of the "free cavalry per settlement conquest" ability. I've entertained similar designs for my mod civs, but discarded each time because it feels very underpowered in most play cases.

 

[Siptah]

I'm curious to know what people think of the "free cavalry per settlement conquest" ability. I've entertained similar designs for my mod civs, but discarded each time because it feels very underpowered in most play cases.

It‘s nice to have, because it means you can throw more cav against the next city and don‘t mind if a unit dies. It‘s not a game-changer though. It feels like a win-harder ability to me, as you want to start the conquest spree with a decent army already. Maybe now with siege units staying alive through transition, it‘s actually a bit better because you might take your first settlement fast and without many troops and an extra makes a difference?

I also wonder how Mongols play with the Mausoleum. It should work for their Keshigs, because they are cavalry, right?

 

[uppi]

I also wonder how Mongols play with the Mausoleum. It should work for their Keshigs, because they are cavalry, right?

I am fairly sure it does. Mausoleum really boosts Mongols, because you already have a lot of cavalry and now each one needs to be killed twice before it is gone. And Mongols have the ability to get those back to the frontline really quickly (at least one the home continent).

Their +4 settlement limit is already very great. You might pick them just for that if you are as addicted to settlement limit increases as I am. Otherwise, they don't have many economic bonuses, but who needs economic bonuses when you can just take the opponents cities?

I would say that if they have a weakness it is that they have a ceiling: They are not really equipped to go over the settlement limit, so once you have reached it, you are kind of stuck. Which is fine if you put some thoughts into your conquests and thus that ceiling is quite high.

There is no shortage of militaristic leaders which play well with them, but Genghis Khan is not only thematic but also pairs very well mechanically.

 

[pjotroos]

I don't pick them often, because they really don't contribute much beyond conquest, but they are absolutely fantastic at conquest - I used them for my first deity win, and I used them again recently to try out pangea map with Genghis (on Immortal). The game finished on turn 61 of Exploration:

Corona Civica helped me keep the happiness in check during early conquest, and midway through the era, happiness and production didn't really matter all that much anymore.

Cavalry spawning on city conquest may sound gimmicky, but - in practice - it really helps keep your momentum going; you leave the most wounded unit behind to heal on the conquered city center, and the fresh one takes their place.

Really cool idea behind Ortoo, too - similarly to Ming wall, there's a great added minigame of trying to build the longest runway possible.

And no, the best music is Bulgaria (though I'd rate Nepal and Aksum up there as well).

 

[Leucarum]

I've played them twice. Mostly agree with comments. They are fine just not fun for me.

Alongside Majapahit they do suffer from that fact that the only difficult legacy path in exploration is economic, so their alternative way to play into paths really isn't that much of a boost...

 

[bengalryan9]

And no, the best music is Bulgaria (though I'd rate Nepal and Aksum up there as well).

Ok, now it's time to fight.

(Bulgaria is #2)

 

[Tanel]

I am fairly sure it does. Mausoleum really boosts Mongols, because you already have a lot of cavalry and now each one needs to be killed twice before it is gone. And Mongols have the ability to get those back to the frontline really quickly (at least one the home continent).

Their +4 settlement limit is already very great. You might pick them just for that if you are as addicted to settlement limit increases as I am. Otherwise, they don't have many economic bonuses, but who needs economic bonuses when you can just take the opponents cities?

I would say that if they have a weakness it is that they have a ceiling: They are not really equipped to go over the settlement limit, so once you have reached it, you are kind of stuck. Which is fine if you put some thoughts into your conquests and thus that ceiling is quite high.

There is no shortage of militaristic leaders which play well with them, but Genghis Khan is not only thematic but also pairs very well mechanically.

The ceiling is not that much of a limiter. Remember that unhappiness from being over your settlement limit caps at 35 and there are a lot of ways to mitigate it in Exploration age. In my last game I went over hard and most of my cities were still positive with a few that had -4 or -10 unhappiness but I had like over 40 settlements by the end of the age so that makes up for it.

They definitely are a one trick pony but they are really good at that and it's really fun to play.

 

[local_hero]

A one trick pony that I've only played twice. But doing what Mongolia is designed to do is actually quite fun if you feel for something different every now and then.

The package just works well with the extra cavalry, combat strength, settlement limit and bonuses to movement. Just a bit sad that the Ortoo just refreshes movement for Mongolian units, so when you progress to the next age your civilisation takes a tremendous step back in their logistical capability. It's great when you can move an army across a landmass in only a few turns although the Ortoo is a bit hard to place. You ideally want to place it on a road but you can have long stretches with rough and vegetated terrain. But when it pops, it pops!

 

[disjointaccount]

Fun in concept; really not a fan of their changes to the military legacy path making it harder and Keshigs are a little underwhelming with how unit balance currently is. I see the vision, but I'd have a very hard time being convinced to pick Mongolia when Bulgaria does everything they do, but better.

 

[UWHabs]

Fun in concept; really not a fan of their changes to the military legacy path making it harder and Keshigs are a little underwhelming with how unit balance currently is. I see the vision, but I'd have a very hard time being convinced to pick Mongolia when Bulgaria does everything they do, but better.

Finally getting through to playing a Mongolia game, and I just don't like them. They're a very one-trick pony, and frankly, you can get so much of their kit just from picking a different leader, or using someone like Bulgaria.

Military path is easy on them, sure, since you're overrun your continent. But you still need to go to the distant lands to get treasure convoys. If you gave them like a treasure convoy for each captured homeland settlement (maybe give them a 2 point treasure convoy for each captured homeland settlement, enough to get 10-20 points with moderate conquests, or up to the full 30 if you have a lot of homeland captures).

Otherwise, I feel like they should have even more to help them in military - give them a production bonus to cavalry, maybe, or at least give Keshigs the ability to move after attacking, so you can cycle them through your commanders even more. Or maybe instead of a free Noyan, give each Noyan the promotion to heal on each attack. Or maybe even some other big economic bonus, like +50% gold on upgrading units. As it stands, I'm finding that my Keshigs are just sitting in the open and being picked off by my neighbour, the only redeeming quality being that they get cycled back to my capital thanks to the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, so at least each one gets a second chance.

They feel like a civ where you have to already basically be winning to make use of their bonuses. There's a good start of a design at play, but maybe they also benefit more just fully leaning into it. I'm playing as Confucius, who's not bad at least in that he makes sure I have a good science basis to build from. But I'm tempted in my current game to go back to my save at the end an the antiquity and play it out again as Bulgaria instead, just to see how much better one is vs the other.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

They're a very one-trick pony

 

[uppi]

Otherwise, I feel like they should have even more to help them in military - give them a production bonus to cavalry, maybe, or at least give Keshigs the ability to move after attacking, so you can cycle them through your commanders even more. Or maybe instead of a free Noyan, give each Noyan the promotion to heal on each attack. Or maybe even some other big economic bonus, like +50% gold on upgrading units. As it stands, I'm finding that my Keshigs are just sitting in the open and being picked off by my neighbour, the only redeeming quality being that they get cycled back to my capital thanks to the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, so at least each one gets a second chance.

They feel like a civ where you have to already basically be winning to make use of their bonuses. There's a good start of a design at play, but maybe they also benefit more just fully leaning into it. I'm playing as Confucius, who's not bad at least in that he makes sure I have a good science basis to build from. But I'm tempted in my current game to go back to my save at the end an the antiquity and play it out again as Bulgaria instead, just to see how much better one is vs the other.

In my opinion, to get full benefit of Mongols, you need to go full out military and pair them with a military leader like Charlemagne, Genghis Khan or Tecumseh. Their main benefit is that they get a lot of settlement limit, so you want to fill that up quickly, which means you need to stack combat bonus (if you are playing high difficulty levels). That extra science on specialists Confucius gives you does not really help you that much, because Mongols usually don't get science by placing a lot of specialists, they get science by conquering enemy (former) capitals with a few wonders (and then maybe placing a specialist there). And that way they can turn a game around, because not only have your yields increased, but also the yields of your opponents have decreased.

 

[UWHabs]

In my opinion, to get full benefit of Mongols, you need to go full out military and pair them with a military leader like Charlemagne, Genghis Khan or Tecumseh. Their main benefit is that they get a lot of settlement limit, so you want to fill that up quickly, which means you need to stack combat bonus (if you are playing high difficulty levels). That extra science on specialists Confucius gives you does not really help you that much, because Mongols usually don't get science by placing a lot of specialists, they get science by conquering enemy (former) capitals with a few wonders (and then maybe placing a specialist there). And that way they can turn a game around, because not only have your yields increased, but also the yields of your opponents have decreased.

Yeah, I didn't necessarily pick that combo since it was the best, more that I haven't play as Kong yet, and when I went to pick my exploration civ, I wasn't exactly friendly with my continent so I expected some action, and it seemed natural to give the Mongols a try.

In my game I ended up doing a little reloading to play things differently. I tried initially basically taking a surprise war right from turn 2 of the era, but then Ashoka brought in the Shawnee a few turns later and I couldn't fight both at once, I didn't have enough cities to replenish my troops. Restarted the era, this time at least spend the first little bit of the era getting my cities set up. Ashoka ended up declaring on me around turn 15. I was more prepared, but again he brought in the Shawnee. Then I went back to try to butter up the Shawnee, get a bunch of trade routes, got them up friendly, and still they ended up jumping from basically neutral to allied with Ashoka and joining in on the war on their side.
So I ended up going back for a final time. This time basically knowing all this would happen, giving myself as much chance as I could, and this time the same things happened, but I weathered the storms a lot better. Thankfully the Shawnee seemed most interested in capturing a couple of the CS that I got early suzerains on, so by the time their armies were coming towards me, I had built up enough of them to be able to pick off a few troops a turn, and turned around to capture one of their outskirt cities. Now I can probably sue for peace, give myself 10 turns to focus on a single front war, before going at them again.

Although that all said, all my initial points still stand. I'm going to struggle to get even the first checkpoint on the treasure fleet path, I think. I've been delayed enough I didn't have a chance to get the first island city settled, so if I want treasure points, I'll need to capture settlements to generate them. If it wasn't for that, if they had a way to generate homeland fleet points like Inca or Songhai, then at least I could keep all my focus at home.