Civ Discussion - Persia

[bengalryan9]

Two more antiquity civs to look at before we close out the age. Next up is Persia, an Economic and Militaristic civilization with a starting bias towards desert. Their associated wonder is the Gate of all Nations (+2 support on all wars). They unlock the Abbasid, Bulgarian, and Mongolian civs in the exploration age and the Mughal in the modern age.

Their unique ability is Hamarana Council, giving infantry units +3 combat strength when attacking.
Their unique military unit is the Immortal, a spearman replacement that heals 15HP after defeating an enemy unit.
Their unique civilian unit is the Hazarapatis, a commander unit that starts with the Initiative promotion.
Their unique infrastructure is the Pairidaeza, which gives +1 culture and +1 gold, but cannot be next to each other.

Persian civics:
Spada - -1 gold maintenance on military units and unlocks the Kara tradition
Satrapies – unlocks the Pairidaeza and Gate of All Nations, as well as the Angarium tradition. At mastery it gives +1 settlement limit and gives Pairidaeza +1 happiness for every adjacent quarter
Achaemenid Empire – gives +5 gold for every different civilization you’ve captured a settlement from. At mastery it unlocks the Shahanshah tradition and gives another +1 settlement limit.

Persian traditions:
Kara - +50% production towards infantry units
Angarium - +3 gold for every town
Shahanshah - +3 combat strength for units in enemy territory

What are everyone’s thoughts on Persia – are they strong, weak, or just right? Is there anywhere they could use a buff or nerf? Which leaders fit well with them, and who are you looking to transition to in future ages?

 

[bengalryan9]

Persia's fine, I guess. They're basically built to do one thing and that one thing is the opposite of how I typically play, so they're not somebody I'm likely to touch all that much personally but they certainly get the job done. Not a lot of flexibility here, though.

Immortals are OK but cavalry will give them trouble. Hazarapatis give a very nice promotion for free and that's always a positive.Their civics and traditions all work in tandem with what Persia wants to do - go conquering - but that's about all they do for you. The Pairidaeza always seemed kind of weak to me... just one gold and one culture, *and* they have restrictions on where you can put them? Meh (I don't use momentos FWIW). I suppose the happiness is the main selling point to help deal with war weariness and being over the settlement limit but I'm just not sure that's all that exciting. Gate of All Nations is a decent wonder but one that you will have no problem building regardless because the AI doesn't seem to care about it. Desert bias should get you access to camels, which is nice.

One big advantage of Persia is that they unlock both the Mongolians and Bulgarians in exploration, two civs that you are definitely going to want to consider choosing at the age transition (Bulgaria unlock is pretty easy, Mongols takes some lucky map generation). Both of these focus on cavalry, though, and as Persia you're likely to have a bunch of infantry. The automatic Abbasid unlock is another nice one as that one is also tricky, but it's not a transition that makes a ton of sense IMO.

Persia's reputation is that they are the best civ to take if you want to go down the military path but I dunno... I think I'd maybe lean towards Maurya over them? With Maurya you also get a ton of extra happiness with their unique quarter, you get bonus yields from conquered settlements, you get an extra pantheon, you get the elephants for conquering cities, and you also get a bunch of extra combat strength and healing through their civics. You're even likely to have Bulgaria unlocked since you're going to want to build alters as them. At the very least I'm not convinced Persia is head and shoulders above them.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Perfectly A-OK in my book. Definition of "yardstick that gatekeeps the strong Civs from the weak", as probably the strongest weak civ or weakest strong civ based on how you like them.

There's nothing specifically wow-worthy in their kit, but a few leaders do have nice synergies. Green Xerxes gets bonus yields on the Pairidaeza (enough to make them rival Aksum's Stele) and Trung Trac can instantly get a commendation on her first Commander if she starts as Persia (which is easier to get than on Rome's Legatus). Those are probably the two leaders I'd prefer to play this Civ with (maybe Bolivar too? Maybe Oblique Freddy as well? but both can just be Mayans instead)

The tradition that gives bonus gold per Town is quite good. You get quite a bit of settlement limit as Persia, and Gold is the most second most precious yield atm due to Urban Centres working the way it does.

It's a very aggro kit but it gets the job done if you're into early aggression. I don't think you'll ever regret playing Persia because even leaders without a combat bonus can use 'Being Persia' to defend themselves from aggression. This is how my first Persia game (as Green Xerxes) basically went. Ashoka invaded me, and I eliminated him on the counterattack.

Also unlocking Mongols are very easy. Just build three Ballistae. The REAL reward of playing Persia is the free unlock of Abbasids that don't require you to play the miserable Egyptians. Trung Trac Persia into Abbasids is nasty, especially because it all happens on the Tropical terrain that gives her bonus Science.

 

[Manpanzee]

Weakest Antiquity civ (by a lot) and probably my overall least favorite civ in the game currently. It's not documented or noted anywhere, but the most annoying thing about them is their egregious unique civics tree, which costs a bizarrely massive amount of culture to get through.

 

[Leucarum]

Persia is my favourite warmongering Civ. A nice suite of settlement bonuses and a combat strength tradition is very good. The Hazarapatis gets the best commander promotion for free, and you have the gold from towns too... What's not to like - when your best features all stick around through the ages?

What hasn't been mentioned here though are the insane quantity of "get free immortals" events/quests which Persia gets. As soon as you begin your first immortal-fuelled conquest you start printing them!

 

[Navelgazer]

So, Persia is very specifically tooled towards one thing: Conquest. And then, to a lesser extent, maintaining said conquest. I've played through them a number of times, but since I don't really get into conquest very much, I can't say I've come close to getting the most out of them. Especially since their bonuses aren't particularly good on defense (thank God of the Sun, since otherwise they'd be a nightmare on the AI side, whereas right now the AI plays them as a glass cannon.) But to go through it all:

Immortals are a solid UU. Infantry UUs aren't generally going to be the best, but this is one of the better ones. Greece's Hoplites have a high ceiling, but take a lot of work to get there, and on their own they're basically blank. Egypt's Medjay are solid on defense but not particularly useful for offensive wars, and while the Legion can get up to an all-around +3 CS once you've got all of Rome's traditions slotted, the Immortal will have +3 when attacking from the start, and its ability helps it to survive a little longer in the field and get back out there faster. (Of course, Rome will also eventually get culture from building Legions, so it's all pretty balanced, I think, but I personally prefer the Immortal to the Legion.)

The Hazarapatis is just pure value. I'm not sure about anyone else, but Initiative is always, 100% of the time, the first promotion I get for every army commander, so getting it for free is great. And because Commanders carry over with their promotions, this is one of the only UUs that lasts the entire game, which gives you even more reason to get several of them built in Antiquity. It's not a huge bonus, but it's always useful, at least.

The Pairidaeza is... fine. The value of Unique Improvements has a lot to do with how spammable they are, and this one is in the middle there. Not being allowed to be built next to each other is a bummer, but there are at least no other placement requirements, and the happiness adjacency for quarters that comes with Satrapies II makes for some interesting and happy settlements (they're nice to pop down next to any quarters in conquered settlements as soon as you're allowed to purchase in them.) So, better than the Baray (only one per settlement) or Potkop (only worth building in spots where you can't build an urban district), but not as good as the Great Wall (good but kind of a pain to make pretty, at least) and certainly not as good as the Hawilt.

Spada makes your units cheaper to maintain and lets you slot Kara to make it faster to pump out Immortals. Satrapies (once mastered) gives you the happiness bonus for Pairidaeza mentioned above, plus a much needed extra settlement limit and Angarium for +3 gold for every town (which will include all conquered settlements until you can/choose to upgrade them.) Achaemenid Empire gives you +5 gold for each civ you've conquered a settlement from, another settlement cap increase, and Shahanshah for even more offensive war strength. It all adds up, if you want to conquer a huge empire. If you're not interested in doing that, they're largely blank, and you're probably better off playing as someone else.

Abbasid is one of the best automatic unlocks for the Exploration age (honestly probably the best one, generally), but Mongolia is maybe an even better one for them. Both can be tricky to unlock on their own since they depend on the luck of the resource roll, though honestly that's less of an issue with Persia anyway since they want to be conquering so much already. With Mongolia, the biggest issue to overcome is that Persia pushes you towards pumping out infantry, and Mongolia Cavalry, so your military investment won't carry over with as much efficiency as you'd maybe want, but your Hazarapatis units should become Noyan units, which is great, and I believe it's your archers that evolve into Keshigs at the transition in any case (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, I have very little experience with Mongolia and can't recall for sure) and you always want archers in antiquity to back up your infantry, so that helps. Kara is a pretty useless tradition with Mongolia, but Angarium and Shahanshah are both quite useful there. Mughal can be one of the strongest Modern Age civs, but its UA makes it very volatile, and it's easy to accidentally hose yourself transitioning into Modern with it, plus it's not that hard to unlock through gameplay.

As for Leader pairings, there are a lot! Xerxes, King of Kings is, of course, built to pair with Persia for endless conquest. Interestingly, Xerxes, Achaemenid doesn't fit them all that well (the extra trade routes with whomever you're not warring with can alleviate the downside of not being able to trade with those you are currently fighting, and his UB/UI ability pings off of the Pairidaeza, but neither uses him to the fullest. Aksum or Mississippian or even Han is better for him.) Amina can make use of the desert start bias (in addition to her own innate one) to shore up some defensive aspects otherwise lacking, plus the extra resource slots and gold from assigned resources in cities synergizes well here. Augustus likes the help with conquest and the extra bonuses to keeping towns around. Trung Trac likes the extra bonuses to conquest, plus her first Hazarapatis starts with 4 promotions and they all get extra experience. And either Friedrich persona likes getting free immortals and extra help in conquest. Freddy B. gets to use the conquest for free great works, and Freddy O. gets to add the Merit commendation to the Hazarapatis. And Augustus, Trung Trac, and both Freddies provide science/cultural support which you're not getting from anything in the civ kit itself, which is nice.

Overall, not my favorite, but that's mostly because it doesn't fit my playstyle. But definitely one of the best for what it wants to do (though it's funny that Maurya might arguably be better at that thing, since Maurya is also far more versatile.)

 

[bengalryan9]

There's nothing specifically wow-worthy in their kit, but a few leaders do have nice synergies. Green Xerxes gets bonus yields on the Pairidaeza (enough to make them rival Aksum's Stele)

I figured somebody would bring this (or the memento that does a similar thing) up regarding the Pairidaeza, but Xerxes bonus applies to every UI and certainly isn't unique to Persia. It's great that he can make the Pairidaeza as great as the Aksum UI, but just play as Aksum with him and you'll have an even *better* UI, with way better yields that you can basically spam anywhere. Pairidaeza is weak IMO.

Also unlocking Mongols are very easy.

I thought it required 3 horses to unlock, not training 3 ballista. Now that I look it up it seems to be both? Either way having access to 3 horses is going to be map dependent even if you are on the warpath.

 

[Navelgazer]

Forgot to mention a couple of things: Gate of All Nations is a great wonder no matter who you are, and even better with Persia, and the extra production to it is nice, but I've never had any trouble getting it with any civ I play as (playing on Sovereign difficulty, at least.) Also, if you're starting off on the civics tree doing Chiefdom->Mysticism->Discipline->Code of Laws before moving onto the civ-specific civic tree (which is what I do, though that might not be standard practice, I'm not sure), then it's much faster to unlock Gate of All Nations with Discipline II than with Satrapies. So, decent little perk, but not a game-changing one by any means.

I also forgot to mention Simón Bolívar as a potential leader, but he fits well, as an Expansionist/Militaristic leader with the extra War Support and ability to pop a Pairidaeza for free in every newly-conquered settlement (though there will almost certainly be other constructibles that you'd want to prioritize, and that's still good synergy with Persia.) And, of course, Harriet Tubman's war support can get ridiculous here, provided you anger your neighbors enough to get them DOWing you instead of taking the initiative yourself.

 

[Lord Lakely]

The Hazarapatis is just pure value. I'm not sure about anyone else, but Initiative is always, 100% of the time, the first promotion I get for every army commander, so getting it for free is great. And because Commanders carry over with their promotions, this is one of the only UUs that lasts the entire game, which gives you even more reason to get several of them built in Antiquity. It's not a huge bonus, but it's always useful, at least.

It's the best tier 1 promotion, but idk about how essential it is to get stacking levels in assault. I've quit wars because of cliffs I missed. Logistics is way more important, especially with an army of Infantry.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I figured somebody would bring this (or the memento that does a similar thing) up regarding the Pairidaeza, but Xerxes bonus applies to every UI and certainly isn't unique to Persia. It's great that he can make the Pairidaeza as great as the Aksum UI, but just play as Aksum with him and you'll have an even *better* UI, with way better yields that you can basically spam anywhere. Pairidaeza is weak IMO.

The Pairidaeza should be buffed up, yeah, but it IS a nice UI under green Xerxes. That he's even better with Aksum doesn't really discount that.

 

[uppi]

They do fit my playstyle, but I find them kind of weak. If I want to do Infantry-based conquest, I would probably pick Rome instead. And my preferred continuation of that would be Spain in Exploration, which Rome gets for free but would be tricky with Persia (unless you want to play Isabella of Persia). Though if you were able to manage it, Xerxes Kok + Shahanshah + Conquista would be quite terrifying for conquering distant lands.

 

[MutilationWave]

It's the best tier 1 promotion, but idk about how essential it is to get stacking levels in assault. I've quit wars because of cliffs I missed. Logistics is way more important, especially with an army of Infantry.

I gotta disagree here. Initiative is the top promotion and there is nothing that comes close in my opinion. It's just so versatile when it comes to saving your units' movement and getting past tough terrain quickly. The +3 bonus to whichever unit is nothing compared to the movement advantage of initiative. Even if you go up to the commendation to get +5 to all, I still think initiative beats it.

 

[Sostratus]

Persia is a civ that I am routinely impressed at how well it handles in game. Especially if you picked one of the Xerxes; both synergize well.

Personally I think it’s well designed.

Persia has the wonderful bonus of +2 settlement cap in its civic tree, which is always nice to see. +3 attack on infantry is really solid and the Shahanshah tradition pairs well, as does Xerxes KoK.

Especially as you raise the difficulty, a simple and reliable combat bonus really helps round out a lot of leaders. The immortal is just flavor; the unique commander is nice to have. But the traditions are useful into later ages and the offensive muscle + extra settlements really helps you set a good foundation.

There’s nothing wrong with Persia as a package. The pairidaeza isn’t as strong as some UIs, sure, but Xerxes A fixes that right up (although he makes all UIs great.)

I think this is good civ design.

 

[bengalryan9]

One other thing worth mentioning from me - at least in my experience the AI does pretty well as Persia.

 

[UWHabs]

I gotta disagree here. Initiative is the top promotion and there is nothing that comes close in my opinion. It's just so versatile when it comes to saving your units' movement and getting past tough terrain quickly. The +3 bonus to whichever unit is nothing compared to the movement advantage of initiative. Even if you go up to the commendation to get +5 to all, I still think initiative beats it.

Yeah, if you want to avoid movement traps, you can just pick up and redeploy units. Pack into the commander, redeploy on the other side of the commander all for 1 movement point only, and then immediately attack.

Persia's the last antiquity civ I haven't tried yet, I think early on I generally have enough to deal with just settling, that I don't need early wars. I've tried for the last few days to get a Persia/Freddy game going, but the more I look at it, i think that's not the best combo. Gunning the culture tree for the +50% production card, by that point you can probably one turn your infantry units. Immortals don't even come until T2 anyways, so delaying a bit before going on a mid-era run maybe isn't the worst strategy either.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

My must have wonder. Gate of All Nations

 

[disjointaccount]

Not much to say that hasn't been said already. Strong military civ; probably the best for it in antiquity? Unique commanders are very nice, Immortals are good but I'm still going to favour cav. Similiarly, UA is a but of a letdown. Shahanshah is the real star of the show. Great to hsave for the entirety of the game.

GoaN is one of the easiest wonders to get but extra production towards it is still nice. +2 settlement limit is great.

The UI is pretty bland. The limit on spamming seems unnecessary for how mid its yields are, but I guess maybe it's just a bit mediocre on purpose since other aspects of Persia's kit are so strong.

Unlocks are great - either take the massive empire you achieved through conquest and turn it into a hige simcity engine with Abbasid, or keep conquering with Bulgaria.

For leaders, military Xerxes is the most obvious choice to buff your infantry further or give a compensatory boost to non-infantry as well as allowing even higher settlement limits, but really any leade with capacity for war likes Persia.

Persia's a bit of a one-trick pony, but it's a fun trick and they do it well.

 

[Yzman]

When I am going for early conquests Persia is the one to do it, bar none.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I gotta disagree here. Initiative is the top promotion and there is nothing that comes close in my opinion. It's just so versatile when it comes to saving your units' movement and getting past tough terrain quickly. The +3 bonus to whichever unit is nothing compared to the movement advantage of initiative. Even if you go up to the commendation to get +5 to all, I still think initiative beats it.

I absolutely disagree. It's a useful promotion to have but not an essential one at all. If you don't have it, you unpack your troops the turn before you DoW, and that's no big deal. If you're attacked well, you just unpack anyway and allow your units to sponge attacks. units are dirt cheap in antiquity, just buy them with gold in your nearby cities.

Logistics otoh... allows you to pack more units, which retains more units between era's, and allows you to scale cliffs if you get 4 levels into it, which is massive. When I had my aggressive persia game, it took AGES to conquer ashoka because his empire was perched behind layers of cliffs. I had to buy cavalry to reinforce my army as my immortals couldn't maneuver around the chokepoints - they would block the hexes where i wanted my ballistae to be for bombardement purposes. I ultimately won (on the LAST TURN of the age), but it was such a production, and only Survival Training would have made it easier.

In other games I've had instances where the AI planted their cities on a cliff face next to a mountain. and I could only attack the City Centre from 1-2 squares, and then had to spend 10-ish turns moving around the mountain to capture the other districts behind the cliff.

Assault is useful and it leads to a good amount of bonus Combat Strength but that is useless if you simply cannot reach the hexes you want to attack before the enemy runs out of money/units to throw at you. Unless your army is full cavalry + ranged, but if that's the case, when why are you Persia, and not Maurya?

That isn't to say the Persian Commander is weak. Initiative is the best tier 1 promotion and they get it for free, and retain it for the rest of the game. That's awesome! But utility beats strength every single time.

 

[MutilationWave]

I absolutely disagree. It's a useful promotion to have but not an essential one at all. If you don't have it, you unpack your troops the turn before you DoW, and that's no big deal. If you're attacked well, you just unpack anyway and allow your units to sponge attacks. units are dirt cheap in antiquity, just buy them with gold in your nearby cities.

Logistics otoh... allows you to pack more units, which retains more units between era's, and allows you to scale cliffs if you get 4 levels into it, which is massive. When I had my aggressive persia game, it took AGES to conquer ashoka because his empire was perched behind layers of cliffs. I had to buy cavalry to reinforce my army as my immortals couldn't maneuver around the chokepoints - they would block the hexes where i wanted my ballistae to be for bombardement purposes. I ultimately won (on the LAST TURN of the age), but it was such a production, and only Survival Training would have made it easier.

In other games I've had instances where the AI planted their cities on a cliff face next to a mountain. and I could only attack the City Centre from 1-2 squares, and then had to spend 10-ish turns moving around the mountain to capture the other districts behind the cliff.

Assault is useful and it leads to a good amount of bonus Combat Strength but that is useless if you simply cannot reach the hexes you want to attack before the enemy runs out of money/units to throw at you. Unless your army is full cavalry + ranged, but if that's the case, when why are you Persia, and not Maurya?

That isn't to say the Persian Commander is weak. Initiative is the best tier 1 promotion and they get it for free, and retain it for the rest of the game. That's awesome! But utility beats strength every single time.

What's the second best promotion and why is it manuever?