Civ Discussion - Qajar

[bengalryan9]

Now that I'm back from vacation it's time to cover the remaining four civilizations currently in the game, and next up is one of the most recent additions - Qajar. Qajar is a diplomatic and expansionist civilization with a starting bias towards desert and plains. Their associated wonder is Eram Garden, which gives a base +4 food and +1 specialist limit in the settlement that it is built. They can be unlocked by playing as Assyria, Persia, or Abbasid earlier in the game, by choosing either version of Xerxes as your leader, or by having 1 settlement with at least 5 specialists in it.

Their unique ability is Kayani Crown, which gives increased influence towards supporting diplomatic actions.
Their unique military unit is the Gholam, a cuirassier replacement that has increased CS and healing when in the command radius of a Sardar.
Their unique civilian unit is the Sardar, a unique commander with increased movement. It also allows for the razing of additional districts per turn in settlements with a commander.
Their unique buildings are the Ghahve Khane (base +9 food and bonus happiness for adjacent gold buildings) and the Takyeh (base +9 happiness and bonus influence for adjacent culture buildings), which together form the unique quarter the Baq, which gives +10% influence and culture to the settlement during celebrations.

Qajar Civics:
Nezam-e Jadid - unlocks the Qullaraqasi tradition and gives +1 CS to land units for every 2 settlements owned below the settlement limit
Twelve Gates - unlocks the Ghahve Khane and the Waqaye-e Ettefaqiya tradition, and at mastery gives +10 food and +10 production in the capital for every settlement owned below the settlement limit.
The Sun Throne - unlocks the Takyeh, Eram Garden, and the Soleymaniyeh Palace tradition, and at mastery gives +200 culture when supporting an endeavor while also giving the other leader +100 gold.

Qajar Traditions:
Qullaraqasi - commander units stationed in a district give +15 happiness
Waqaye-e Ettefaqiya - +10 science and culture in the capital for every settlement owned below the settlement limit
Soleymaniyeh Palace - +.5 influence for every population in the capital

Thoughts on Qajar? Strong, weak, or just right? Any interesting observations or strategies you've found when playing as them? Which other civs and leaders pair well with them? Let's discuss!

 

[bengalryan9]

I have yet to play as Qajar, though I will probably do so in my next game. I think some of the descriptions of their ability aren't worded all that clearly but assuming that they work like I think they do I think it's a pretty interesting design that I could probably get some use from. As someone who doesn't go to war or conquer cities I'm not like a lot of other players in that I'm very rarely at or over the settlement limit in the modern age so I should be able to take advantage of some of their bonuses. Are those bonuses worth the trade off? I'm not sure yet and will have to see for myself, but I think it's neat to see one civ in the game that rewards you for playing with less settlements.

Their unique units sound ok - hard to argue with a commander that has extra movement and a bunch of stronger, faster healing cavalry packed into it. I'm not sure Eram Garden is all that great as I find it pretty easy to get specialist slots in modern age. I don't know if I'm particularly impressed by the influence bonuses but maybe they're stronger than I realize... I still have to play them!

 

[MutilationWave]

I haven't played them yet either, but a modern age unique commander is hard to justify building, as I've got all my commanders leveled up from earlier ages. I appreciate their ability to raze faster, I guess it synergizes with all the low settlement stuff, but we're talking small potato bonuses in modern. I'm about to break through 1000 food in my capital right now in turn 20 of modern, and +10 science and culture is nothing comparatively. Happiness is never a problem outside of certain crises, it's at the bottom of my list for yields the entire game.

The additional production for being below limit could be a nice way to kickstart the age in the capital.

I will try them eventually but I think they need a huge buff already.

 

[stealth_nsk]

When I play peaceful game, I often stay way below limit in modern, so the additional output helps. But like other modern civs, it's not a significant effect.

 

[nara]

On the latest patch, I played 1 game as Mughal - had enough gold to max out the Culture (explorers), Economy (factory towns) and Military (unit upkeep) pathways, but lacked the science for the fourth path. And 1 game of Prussia, where the gold was enough for one (picked Military because I was playing Lafayette). And two games of Qajar. On the first game I tried the military patch, but gave up the game when the treasury had run out before a took a single settlement. On the second game I tried the Science path and got there easily, because the Qajar combination of good production, science, food and culture works great for the science victory. Also helps that you can stay at peace through its diplomacy bonuses. I felt the lack of gold income made the non-Science victory pathways hard. Tried getting explorers, but got beaten to all the ruins because I had to build them with production.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Well I lost the Modern Start game that I played as them, so there's that.

They just... Don't do anything relevant, rly? Yeah buffs across the board but it never is as much as you'd want it to be. Catherine + Russia and Franklin + America AND Ashoka + Mugabe/Nepal all single handedly beat Qajar + any leader from equivalent positions.

 

[UWHabs]

I think some civs need to have the penalty for razing settlements reduced or eliminated. As much of a bonus to influence as you get from the rest of the bonuses, if you raze like 2 or 3 settlements, you've lost all of those bonuses. If you want them to play as a civ which keeps their old core, and just goes around the world razing everything else, then honestly they need something like a Bulgaria bonus. Give me like +1 influence in all settlements for each settlement that you raze, and like +1 production in each city for each population point that is razed, if you want that ability to be interesting (I know nothing if that at all would be historical).

It's a very niche game where I would really load up my capital and be below the limit, enough that I would want to choose them.

 

[uppi]

I think they are really strong if you manage to push the settlement limit, but are not really using it. In my recent Ghengis game, I startet Modern with 20/31 settlements and ended with 20/38. +180 production in the capital resulted in 350 production total, which is probably my highest production in a city ever. And I did not even go Fascist. I could hard build the satellite in 2 turns.

In addition to that, their military bonuses are really strong. The Gholam is the only good cavalry UU in Modern and as such it is probably the strongest land unit in the game. And that is before you add in the bonus for being below settlement limit, which can be quite substantial (up to +9 in my case. Add in the Ghengis Bonus and you cavalry is unstoppable.

There are some drawbacks, though:
Burning cities down still takes some time and it binds your commanders, so you might not advance as quickly as you could. Burning down the 10 cities required to win the military victory will also really drain your influence, so one you start the campaign, their influence bonuses are kind of wasted.

Also, their main abilities all require unlocking in the civics tree, which will also slow you down a bit. And their buildings and quarter are a bit expensive for what they do and by the time you get them, you don't really need them anymore.

All in all, they are a bit situational, but often they are the best civ for a military victory. And since for me the military victory is by far the quickest victory, they are in contention for the top spot in Modern for me (in an admittedly bad to mediocre field)

 

[Krikkit1]

I haven't played them yet either, but a modern age unique commander is hard to justify building, as I've got all my commanders leveled up from earlier ages. I appreciate their ability to raze faster, I guess it synergizes with all the low settlement stuff, but we're talking small potato bonuses in modern. I'm about to break through 1000 food in my capital right now in turn 20 of modern, and +10 science and culture is nothing comparatively. Happiness is never a problem outside of certain crises, it's at the bottom of my list for yields the entire game.

The additional production for being below limit could be a nice way to kickstart the age in the capital.

I will try them eventually but I think they need a huge buff already.

Don’t all the existing commanders become the unique commander?

 

[Leucarum]

Honestly they come across to me as the civ you pick if you want to autopilot- next-turn through Modern. The passive production bonus in particular can be a decent thing, and this might be the civ where you have to do the least amount of stuff in modern to use their abilities.

So... If you feel you really have to play modern in order to get a momento and want it to be over with the minimum of gameplay... Well, I'd probably still pick Prussia but Qajar is there too!

 

[MutilationWave]

Don’t all the existing commanders become the unique commander?

I should know this but I don't. If they do then that's cool.

 

[uppi]

I should know this but I don't. If they do then that's cool.

They do and so do all other unique commanders.

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

I think they are really strong if you manage to push the settlement limit, but are not really using it. In my recent Ghengis game, I startet Modern with 20/31 settlements and ended with 20/38. +180 production in the capital resulted in 350 production total, which is probably my highest production in a city ever. And I did not even go Fascist. I could hard build the satellite in 2 turns.

In addition to that, their military bonuses are really strong. The Gholam is the only good cavalry UU in Modern and as such it is probably the strongest land unit in the game. And that is before you add in the bonus for being below settlement limit, which can be quite substantial (up to +9 in my case. Add in the Ghengis Bonus and you cavalry is unstoppable.

There are some drawbacks, though:
Burning cities down still takes some time and it binds your commanders, so you might not advance as quickly as you could. Burning down the 10 cities required to win the military victory will also really drain your influence, so one you start the campaign, their influence bonuses are kind of wasted.

Also, their main abilities all require unlocking in the civics tree, which will also slow you down a bit. And their buildings and quarter are a bit expensive for what they do and by the time you get them, you don't really need them anymore.

All in all, they are a bit situational, but often they are the best civ for a military victory. And since for me the military victory is by far the quickest victory, they are in contention for the top spot in Modern for me (in an admittedly bad to mediocre field)

Out of curiosity, how did you get to a settlement limit of 31 at the start of Modern? I have been trying to plan out a potential Xerxes Qajar run and only saw a potential settlement limit of 27 at that point. My plan was to go Xerxes KoK with Persia -> Mongolia and to prioritize the Expansionist and Military City-States early to get those 2, then make sure to grab everything in the tech and civic trees. In exploration, I was going to take the +2 Settlement Limit Legacy path, then go for the same city-states and get the tech and civic settlement limit increases. Going into the Modern, the plan was to make sure I got the two settlement limit from the attribute tree as well. It sounds like there may be some settlement limit increases that I am missing though since I believe that would take me to 27. Are there differences in the settlement limit with different map sizes?

 

[pjotroos]

I find myself in clear minority this time around. Only played them once so far, but I've enjoyed that game a lot.

I stacked the deck a little in my favour by running KoK Xerxes and Corona Civica, got 15/27 settlements at the start of modern, which translated into very silly yields in my capital by turn 10:

It was also by far the most enjoyable modern war I've played yet. I've posted what would otherwise go into this discussion in their release thread, so I'll just quote it back;

Modern military win is about getting to the 20 points without getting drowned in negative happiness from all the extra settlements you end up grabbing; and in modern, they will take multiple turns to disappear even if you do try to raze them. That stops being a problem even in medium-sized settlements with Qajar, if you park multiple Sardārs in the district, and they excel at destroying little towns - which are perfect targets for conquest. And while you burn them down, you get a couple of turns to heal, before going back to converting all the unused settlement cap into combat power. Really good, coherent, powerful and enjoyable kit.

 

[uppi]

Out of curiosity, how did you get to a settlement limit of 31 at the start of Modern? I have been trying to plan out a potential Xerxes Qajar run and only saw a potential settlement limit of 27 at that point. My plan was to go Xerxes KoK with Persia -> Mongolia and to prioritize the Expansionist and Military City-States early to get those 2, then make sure to grab everything in the tech and civic trees. In exploration, I was going to take the +2 Settlement Limit Legacy path, then go for the same city-states and get the tech and civic settlement limit increases. Going into the Modern, the plan was to make sure I got the two settlement limit from the attribute tree as well. It sounds like there may be some settlement limit increases that I am missing though since I believe that would take me to 27. Are there differences in the settlement limit with different map sizes?

I think you are missing the Corona Civica memento?

In Antiquity, I had 3 base + 1 Corona Civica + 1 from tech + 2 from civics + 1 from militaristic city state + 1 from the militaristic attribute tree + 0 from Silla = 9 at the end (which is not the limit, with Xerxes, an expansionist city state and Assyria or Persia, you could end up with 13)

Then on age transition: 9 (from Antiquity) + 2 Corona Civica + 2 Fealty + 1 militaristic attribute again = 14 at the start of Exploration.

In Exploration: 14 + 1 from tech + 5 from civics + 1 from expansionist attribute + 2 from militaristic and expansionist city state + 1 from El Escorial + 1 from Bulgaria = 25 at the end of exploration

Finally at age transition to Modern: 25 from Exploration + 3 from Corona Civica + 2 from attributes again + 1 from El Escorial again = 31

I think with Xerxes and Mongolia you could probably start with over 40 in Modern if you push it. One day I am going to make a run where I try to max out settlement limit to see how high it can go

 

[Krikkit1]

Out of curiosity, how did you get to a settlement limit of 31 at the start of Modern? I have been trying to plan out a potential Xerxes Qajar run and only saw a potential settlement limit of 27 at that point. My plan was to go Xerxes KoK with Persia -> Mongolia and to prioritize the Expansionist and Military City-States early to get those 2, then make sure to grab everything in the tech and civic trees. In exploration, I was going to take the +2 Settlement Limit Legacy path, then go for the same city-states and get the tech and civic settlement limit increases. Going into the Modern, the plan was to make sure I got the two settlement limit from the attribute tree as well. It sounds like there may be some settlement limit increases that I am missing though since I believe that would take me to 27. Are there differences in the settlement limit with different map sizes?

It’s because settlement Limit bonus double count on age transition..Xerxes or Corona Civice each give a total of +6 in modern.

Your plan would give
8+1 Xerx+2 CS=11 in antiquity
11+2 Xerx+2 Fealty + 6 TechCivic +4 Mongols +2 CS=27 in Exploration

27+3 Xerx=30 to start modern with
(before attributes on transition ..+2 to +6 max more if you got them earlier and Wonders from previous age..+1 max)
and a total of +6 from Corona Civica

Means starting Modern with 40 is quite reasonable

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

I don't generally use mementos, so it would make total sense that I forgot about Corona Civica. Not going to lie, I totally forgot that Xerxes KoK's settlement limit increase was on a per age basis since I've only played as him once so far and that was when the game first came out. I also totally forgot that El Escorial existed and functioned in the same manner. Thank you both for the help!

So, if I am summarizing correctly, without mementos you can get up to a settlement limit of 31 (by going Xerxes KoK Persia/Rome/Assyria/Carthage -> Mongolia) at the start of Modern. Then with Corona Civica the entire way through, that can be extended to a settlement limit of 37 at the start of Modern. That means without mementos, you can theoretically reach a settlement limit of 39 with Qajar and then 45 with Qajar with mementos? That changes how I view Qajar for sure, though I definitely still need to experiment to better grasp how their abilities function in practice.

 

[disjointaccount]

I'm also in the boat of not having played them yet. I do plan on getting around to giving them a try, but on paper their kit is unconvincing and I'm not sure they'll become a regular for me. Their most obvious strategy is a militaristic win, coming off the back of a tall empire, but I'm not sure how well that pivot will work in practice, and whether the rewards you reap from leaning into their tall build will be enough to make them worthwhile over other modern military powerhouses. Extra CS cav should be solid, and it's cool to have a tall-focused civ in modern. Prepared for my thoughts to go either way once I actualy give them a shot.

 

[Doratov]

I played a genuine one city challenge (no towns), went with Confucius, the civs were Han, Abbasid and Qajar. Deity, standard. By modern, I was last in everything, although I managed to somewhat keep up. Then with their bonuses, the city supercharged, the food and production bonuses really helped. If I remember correctly, I had a 21 city cap, so it was significant enough. I edged out a science win, so it's definitely doable with them. The AI was going for other victory conditions, so I'm tempted to think, that the game is optimized for this level of play from players

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

>I played a genuine one city challenge (no towns)

I love a good OCC! I like to see how creative people can get to make it work. I always thought Qajar would be perfect for an OCC, so glad to see it is doable with them.

I know Han and Abbasid are great for OCC, but is it possible to do it with other civs? Like Mongolia gets extra settlement capacity. Use your first two civs to get max settlement capacity, and then get an absolute bonkers crazy Qajar in the final age. Could that be done?