Civ Discussion - Qing

[bengalryan9]

We’re down to the final three in our series of discussion threads and next up is Qing China. The Qing are an economic and expansionist civilization with a starting bias towards grassland. Their associated wonder is the Chengde Mountain Resort, which must be adjacent to a mountain and gives a base +6 gold plus +5% culture for every civilization you have a trade route with. They can be unlocked by playing as the Han, Ming, or Mongolians earlier in the game, by choosing Confucius as your leader, or by improving 3 jade tiles.

Their unique ability is Kang Qian Shengshi, which gives +4 gold, +3 culture, and +2 influence on imported resources at a cost of -1 science per imported resource.
Their unique military unit is the Gusa, a line infantry replacement that gets +4 CS when adjacent to another Gusa.
Their unique civilian unit is the Hangshang, a merchant that grants additional gold when creating naval trade routes (50 gold for every imported resource).
Their unique buildings are the Shiguan (base +9 science and bonus happiness for adjacent happiness buildings or wonders) and the Qianzhuang (base +9 gold and bonus gold for adjacent gold buildings and wonders), which together for the unique district the Huiguan which grants +25% influence in the settlement.

Qing Civics:
Ten Great Campaigns – unlocks the Chuang Guandong tradition and gives +1 CS to all units for every other civilization and city-state you have a trade route with
Open Customs – unlocks the Qianzhuang, the Cohong tradition, gives +2 culture for every imported resource, and gives +1 settlement limit
Kang Xi Tax Reformation – unlocks the Shiguan, the Farmland Assessment tradition, and gives +2 food on resources assigned to cities
Stabilizing Frontier – unlocks the Chengde Mountain Resort, the Banner Army tradition, and gives +2 happiness on resources assigned to cities

Qing Traditions:
Chuang Guandong - +25% growth rate in towns with a resource assigned to them
Cohong - +50% trade income
Farmland Assessment - +5% production towards training land units
Banner Army - +3 CS against land units

Thoughts on the Qing? Are they strong, weak, or just right? Any parts of their kit in particular that you enjoy or dislike? Which victories do you tend to pursue as them? Which other civs and leaders in the game pair well with them? Let’s discuss!

 

[bengalryan9]

While I'm not really sure how other people view Qing's power level, I at least think they've got some interesting things going for them. I'm sure everyone is going to mention the malus, and it does matter, but the Shiguan will more than make up for it... but you do have to get there first, so you'll probably get off to a slow start in science. They do get a bunch of extra culture to help, though!

I don't play militarily very often but Qing strikes me as a sneaky good choice, maybe? They've got access to a lot of easy CS bonuses on their Gusas that I would imagine make them hard to handle, especially on larger maps with more players to trade with.

The Hangshang will at least provide a quick influx of gold right at the start of the age. I also really like Chengde Mountain Resort as far as late game wonders are concerned. I think two of their traditions are pretty good (Cohong and Banner Army) and two are pretty weak (Chuang Guandong comes well after I'm really trying to grow my towns, and Farmland Assessment seems like a really small bonus that would barely by noticed). The bonuses they get from civics are also all pretty nice to have.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

I've played the Qing before way back in February. I think i did an economic victory with them. Anyways, that science malus is pretty negligible, unless you're going for science victory of course. But honestly looking at it... it's only -1 Science. You get so much more culture, influence, and gold where it might actually help you with a Science victory! I haven't tried it. Either way it is absolutely nowhere as detrimental than Himiko Shaman's Science penalty. Since she is almost always in celebration, she has a constant -20% Science. Now, THAT is horrible.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think Qing is quite lame. You lose some small amount of yields, you gain more yields. Nothing significantly affecting gameplay like Mughals. Probably the only noticeable ability is bonus to combat strength (pair them with Tecumseh for double bonus from city-states).

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

Haven't played too much of the Qing, but they feel quite strong with the right set-up. Starting with Carthage and spamming your unique quarter can be a big help in getting resource slots for your empire, while going Chola in exploration and spamming their unique quarter allows you to basically trade with anyone in the world. Combining those two bonuses when playing the Qing means you will get a lot of imported resources that you can slot in to get hundreds of bonus Culture and Gold per turn, which can be a big help in achieving a swift Cultural or Economic Victory. The Science malus hurts a bit, but isn't enough of a deterrent away from an Economic Victory if that is what makes the most sense in your game. Never really paid much attention to the bonus influence in the games I have played as them, but extra influence never really goes to waste in this game unless you are refusing to make use of espionage. The diplomatic hits from espionage are fairly minimal when your goal is to have a lot of trade routes with everyone, so there is no reason not to invest that influence into additional espionage actions once your trade routes are set up.

 

[Lord Lakely]

They're a good choice if you've had a solid start in Antiquity or Exploration. Absolutely nothing about this kit is going to win you the game on the spot, but it's a nice layer of bonuses to add on top of a fortuitous Abbasid or Ming game, which already often sees you pull ahead.

In other words, I think they're a 'Win More' Civilization. If you're behind you simply won't take them, but instead go for Civs such as Meiji, Mughals or Prussia. If you start a campaign in Modern you also won't take them either - Russia and Siam are much more potent in those starts. If you're ahead, well... you're likely winning anyway.

 

[bengalryan9]

I've played the Qing before way back in February. I think i did an economic victory with them. Anyways, that science malus is pretty negligible, unless you're going for science victory of course. But honestly looking at it... it's only -1 Science. You get so much more culture, influence, and gold where it might actually help you with a Science victory! I haven't tried it. Either way it is absolutely nowhere as detrimental than Himiko Shaman's Science penalty. Since she is almost always in celebration, she has a constant -20% Science. Now, THAT is horrible.

Worth mentioning that it's -1 science per imported resource, so it's really more like around -30 science at the start of the age on a small map (assuming you immediately start trade routes with everybody else on the map) and more on larger. I agree with you in that it's not a huge deal long term, but it is going to slow you down right at the start.

 

[pjotroos]

Haven't played them in a while, because they rarely feel like a natural follow up. Partly because of how insular the China path is, thematically and unlock-wise, and partly because they are very much a generalist Civ. There isn't a single scenario where they are the outright best pick, or a victory condition that they excel at, and nothing showcases it better than their unique district, which gives two yields on one building, third yield on the second, and fourth yield as a district bonus. Their unique merchant is also incredibly underwhelming; the gold bonus will never make you pick worse set of resources on a naval route over a land one, so it's just a bit more gold, sometime. Not the weakest modern civ, but I think they might be in contention with Great Britain for the blandest.

The one good thing I remember about their games is that I always end up pleasantly surprised with how much influence they can generate - so if you think you'll need an unusual amount of it, they might be the pick.

 

[magicq99]

Cohong - +50% trade income

I have a question about this tradition. What exactly counts as "trade income"?

I know that the receiver of a trade route gets some gold per turn. So for example you get some gold from trade routes the AI (or other players) are sending to you, which should be boosted by this tradition. But your own trade routes give you only access to the resources at the destination and do not yield any gold income (unlike in Civ VI). Is this correct?

So the increased income from this tradition seems to be very depended on the AI sending trade routes to you, which makes it kind of unpredictable. As far as I can tell there is also no way to actually see how many incoming trade routes you have. Is there any way to nudge the AI players to send trade routes to you? Has anybody noticed if the AI is more likely to send any trade routes if you have good relations with them?

Or does the +X on imported resources also count as trade income? This all still appears very intransparent to me.

 

[Leucarum]

The one time I played them was back in the days when the AI would go on a city state killing spree at the start of each age, so I found their influence glut very useful to score as many as I could before they were gone. That said, the latest patch has made influence far more common so I don't think I'd rate this as high now. Early culture is still useful as culture is a race...But I think I'd rate Qing lower than I would have a few patches ago.

I am curious about some of the comments I'd seen on CivFanatics that the Chinese playerbase isn't as enthused by them - thanks to associations of decline rather than playing the culture at its height? That is something which the science penalty weirdly evokes, even if it's just a small malus...

 

[Siptah]

I haven't played them in the past 3 months, but I consider them a good generalist civ. They are quite good for science victory, despite the malus and rather good for economic and militaristic victory as well.

Their malus is less important if you play with regroup, as you don't continue old trade routes – but also, you are a bit slower to get going if you don't make trade routes asap. Yet, I think their malus is pretty negligible. It looks scarier than it is, even with 30+ trade routes, it hardly matters when you are doing 1000+ science per turn (and get a great unique science building).

I rarely choose them, because they seem less thrilling though for some reason that I can't quite describe. I have them unlocked fairly regularly though, as 3 Jade is quite possible until the modern era.

Re: dislike in the Chinese player base. It's quite interesting to see the dislike for Qing in modern China. I'm far from being an expert on Chinese history and culture, but as far as I'm aware, you can make a fair point that while Qing marks the end of more than 2000 years of imperial China (with sometimes merely loose connection in between), the early Qing can also be seen as the culmination of imperial history, glory, and might. Yet, somehow the general sentiment seems to be to look at where imperial China eventually declined and failed, and that the ruling class was Manchu and not Han. It's a bit like if you look at the Roman Empire and focus on the not very successful "foreign" (a description that doesn't make sense in Roman context) Emperors after the 3nd century, instead of also considering the time frame 0-200. It's certainly a choice to see the Great Qing as a foreign dynasty that brought shame and downfall, instead of imperial glory – and not an objectively forced stance. I mean, most civs in civ games have had their shameful and downfall period. But usually, they are overlooked because they don't happen in your game when you are playing as them. And the vast majority of civs and leaders represented in civ games had horrible ideas, intolerable forms of government and laws, and committed horrible things and crimes against nature or any modern morale and ethics. But I know that many players don't want to think about that or their in-game actions as exactly that... (civ players tend to be quite happy to commit genocide, destroy cultures, or cheat their allies/friends at every opportunity).

 

[UWHabs]

Been a while since I played them, but I remember getting an awful lot from their resources. They really come alive once you get factories going. The traditions are pretty meh, but the free extra on resources are nice too. But yeah, they don't really make you change up your play at all.

Which, I mean, not everyone can be crazy wild. They're a decent generalist, you get some yields, you get a bunch of influence.

 

[Leucarum]

I mean, most civs in civ games have had their shameful and downfall period. But usually, they are overlooked because they don't happen in your game when you are playing as them.

Yet, I think their malus is pretty negligible. It looks scarier than it is, even with 30+ trade routes, it hardly matters when you are doing 1000+ science per turn (and get a great unique science building).

Yup. Both good points, I guess in my head I was wondering if given that the malus is pretty negligible, but it is a very visible presence (Civ ability is the first thing you see) which evokes a sense of "falling behind" - maybe it should just go? If it's not doing much other than being a feels bad? And the influence Qing gets is less impressive now too...

 

[pjotroos]

Their malus is less important if you play with regroup, as you don't continue old trade routes

I've gone back to playing exclusively on Regroup (since Continuity leads to even bigger snowballs). You only need to wait an extra turn for your modern trade routes; you can buy a bunch of merchants immediately and they have no travel time.

Yup. Both good points, I guess in my head I was wondering if given that the malus is pretty negligible, but it is a very visible presence (Civ ability is the first thing you see) which evokes a sense of "falling behind" - maybe it should just go? If it's not doing much other than being a feels bad? And the influence Qing gets is less impressive now too...

I don't think it should go completely - I'd love to see more assymetrical civs, personally - but they could do a Bulgaria and swap it with the Open Customs civic.

 

[Leucarum]

I've gone back to playing exclusively on Regroup (since Continuity leads to even bigger snowballs). You only need to wait an extra turn for your modern trade routes; you can buy a bunch of merchants immediately and they have no travel time.

I didn't find it made that much of a difference either way. I guess the size of a snowball does matter but not as much as whether it exists or not. After 2-3 games I've gone back to not playing past Antiquity.

I don't think it should go completely - I'd love to see more assymetrical civs, personally - but they could do a Bulgaria and swap it with the Open Customs civic.

Maybe change it to something more impactful that doesn't contribute to their negative perception? I agree that asymmetry is good, but given how strongly we associate poor science with a sense of falling behind, this might be the most unfortunate place in the franchise to put that particular malus.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I just finished a game, choosing Qing in Modern led by Charlemagne. I stayed away from the Science VC, but succeeded in finding lots of artifacts. I was swimming in culture, due to Open Customs and all of my trade routes. I didn't really notice the science malus; buying factories was expensive because of building costs in 1.2.5. At the same time, the Cohong tradition meant I could buy what I needed (especially after spamming trade routes), every two or three turns.

Having the extra combat strength made it easier to roll up Friedrich and Ashoka, completing the Military legacy path. I ended up with 22 settlements, only 4 cities.

 

[disjointaccount]

Qing have a lot of eggs in the trade basket, which is something I'm never a huge fan of, because it evaporates the minute a war breaks out. Their kit feels a little unfocused too, with the science building but the science malus and the random influence as the quarter bonus. I like generalist civs for modern, but I think the way to do a strong generalist kit is to provide a lot of one resource that's generally strong (production, gold, influence), rather than a little bit of several more specific resources. I haven't played them a ton though so fully open to the possibility there's something I'm missing.

 

[Leucarum]

Qing have a lot of eggs in the trade basket, which is something I'm never a huge fan of, because it evaporates the minute a war breaks out.

NGL this is 100% the reason my go-to modern civ is Prussia. Make war less annoying...

 

[phoenixician]

I have a question about this tradition. What exactly counts as "trade income"?

I know that the receiver of a trade route gets some gold per turn. So for example you get some gold from trade routes the AI (or other players) are sending to you, which should be boosted by this tradition. But your own trade routes give you only access to the resources at the destination and do not yield any gold income (unlike in Civ VI). Is this correct?

...

Correct. The receiver gets gold per turn based on # of resources imported per era: [1 + (1 per era)] * # resources at destination. Doubled if it's a sea route. The GPT is then capped at 3 resources.

...
Or does the +X on imported resources also count as trade income? ...

No. The trade income strictly refers to the yield you get after receive a trade route from other civs. Anything that says +X on imported resources (such as Qing's ability) are not counted as trade income.

...
So the increased income from this tradition seems to be very depended on the AI sending trade routes to you, which makes it kind of unpredictable. As far as I can tell there is also no way to actually see how many incoming trade routes you have. Is there any way to nudge the AI players to send trade routes to you? Has anybody noticed if the AI is more likely to send any trade routes if you have good relations with them?

From my observations, AI is more likely to send trade route to you if the relations are good. Even more so at higher difficulties since they get boosted influence to request more trade routes with you.

 

[Doratov]

I pick them if I played a peaceful game. Last session I was allied with 6 of the other 7 civs, with only one being constantly at least friendly, but denying every attempt of tightening the collab (it was Xerxes...). If you play like me, and arrive to Modern with 7-10 thousand gold, 2-3000 influence points and you picked Qing, you delay the independent power befriending with 5-7 turns, buy as much trade routes as you can right off the bat, get every trade route that is available and makes sense, then you win the game in 30-40 turns without the military path, and in 60 turns if you want all four pathes (in that session I decimated Xerxes). IDK what else is there to tell about them, that trade route ability basically self wins the game