Civ IV Ethics

Pantastic said:
This doesn't really work; I don't see any game rules against selecting options from the menu (if it was against the rules, it would be greyed out). But I think most people here would think that going to worldbuilder and creating 23 mechanized infantry is cheating, even though I don't see how it's actually against the game rules.

Most computer chess programs will give you options to undo your last few moves and try them again. Some will let you add, remove or move pieces on the board in the middle of a game. Does that mean it's part of the rules of chess that you can redo the last few turns or give yourself an extra queen when you feel like it? Of course not.

Just because Civ 4 has built-in tools that you're free to use as you wish when playing by yourself doesn't mean that you're not cheating when using them. But as long as you're playing by yourself and having fun, cheat away, if that's your thing.
 
jayeffaar said:
Most computer chess programs will give you options to undo your last few moves and try them again. Some will let you add, remove or move pieces on the board in the middle of a game. Does that mean it's part of the rules of chess that you can redo the last few turns or give yourself an extra queen when you feel like it? Of course not.

Just because Civ 4 has built-in tools that you're free to use as you wish when playing by yourself doesn't mean that you're not cheating when using them. But as long as you're playing by yourself and having fun, cheat away, if that's your thing.


This is actually an interesting point, but it almost leads me to the opposite conclusion. Part of the problem with Civ, is that it was originally and still is to a large degree a single player game. So to some extent cheating feels like it's "cheating" the computer. But how does one cheat against the computer? It's not like the computer cares. I can beat the game on Monarch a good percentage of the time with only saving on exit. I can't however do that on Emperor. (I'm nowhere close I'm trying to make the move but it's tough as heck). I'll admit even that when I try to make the move up to Emperor, I feel like its so micromanagement heavy that I'll go back to recorrect city utilization if I missed it for two or three turns. That being said, the only reason I can beat it pretty well on Monarch is because when I moved from Prince to Monarch I did much the same thing. One never really plays against "the computer" as a chess opponent (unless your Garry Kaspirov) just for the heck of it, most of the time it's to train yourself and learn. Why should I have done this instead of that...what did I fail to notice the first time through. BUT, often times, to increase ones skill, it's helpful to go back and apply what you've learned. It'd be a pain in the neck, to "learn the ropes" on Emporer while I feel like I have to drudge through 500 turns of being on the chopping block because "to restart" is unethical. But is that cheating? I doubt it very much, can someone who is single (relationship wise) cheat by having some sort of affair? Cheating is about cheating someone else. Am I cheating the computer? Does the computer cheat by getting all sorts of advantages? While I have to basically learn how to make the step up. Does the computer have the advantage that it can think about everything each turn, whereas I tend to notice much less.

That being said, once you go multiplayer, that all goes by the wayside, but when you do play multiplayer, your opponents don't start with a worker and a bunch of archers or whatever, they start like you one unit and a settler, which is not so bad.
 
jayeffaar said:
Most computer chess programs will give you options to undo your last few moves and try them again. Some will let you add, remove or move pieces on the board in the middle of a game. Does that mean it's part of the rules of chess that you can redo the last few turns or give yourself an extra queen when you feel like it? Of course not.

Completely irrelevant, because the "rules of chess" predate the existance of computers at all, much less computer chess programs. When you refer to the "rules of chess", you're referring to published rules independant of any chess program. There is no such set of "rules of civ" to point to, there is only the program.

Just because Civ 4 has built-in tools that you're free to use as you wish when playing by yourself doesn't mean that you're not cheating when using them. But as long as you're playing by yourself and having fun, cheat away, if that's your thing.

Just because you randomly decided that something is cheating doesn't mean that it is. If you could point me to the official 'rules of civ' recognized by an international body similar to the ones that recognize the offical 'rules of chess', then you might have something. But your accusation of cheating is baseless; you're simply declaring that playing a game without breaking any of the game's rules is cheating. Cheating is breaking established or agreed-upon rules of a game, not breaking a 'rule' that some random guy made up on his own.
 
dh_epic said:
Sometimes I won't play Civilization 30 minutes after eating a meal. It's just not right, to me.

:lol:

Of course, since I usually skip meals because I'm playing Civ, I never have to worry about that ethical situation.
 
oooh i never thought about making judasm permanently non exisitant on planet earth by founding it first but delete the missionary and never build the temple

i have always avoided founding judasm, and always go for other religions

and if judasm is spread to one of my cities, i would starve that cities to death untill there is only 1 pop, and then i move the garrison troops away so the enemy will take it, i dont want that city no more, in fact i give to other people, just so i can then invade it with tanks, and put all the "judasm people" into refugee camps and burn the city to the ground

but now i know how i can make judasm gone forever :lol: hahahahahaha
 
Always nice to see one of my threads hijacked by anti-semites. :rolleyes: It's one thing to not spread Judaism in the game because in real life, the religion is one of the few without a proselytizing credo; it's quite another to grind your ugly little prejudicial axe in public.

No wonder I change civics to Free Religion in my games as soon as I can...

Back to the point at hand.

Some of the more recent discussion seems to revolve around cheating, and specifically, who are you cheating? The computer? Of course not. There's an old tired saying, "if you cheat, you only cheat yourself", but there's some truth to it. This is a game of skill; if you take advantage of certain loopholes, or especially features that let you manipulate the game, you're denying yourself the opportunity to overcome certain obstacles and develop skills that will really make you a better player.

Of course, the Internet adds a whole other layer, in the form of bragging rights. "I just beat Monarch!" Good for you--did you do it without going into World Builder even once, without restarting from an earlier turn to correct an error in judgement, without using any exploits...?

On the flip side, there is the whole matter of micromanagement. Not all of us are great at it, and there are SO MANY little decisions to make at every stage of the game. It's easy to miss something; you might forget you left that Scout fortified on a hill because of a passing jaguar, or that you were in the middle of a golden age when you decided to switch civics. Is it cheating to go back a couple of turns just to fix that? Or is it just going to make the game more enjoyable and less frustrating?
 
Sisiutil said:
Always nice to see one of my threads hijacked by anti-semites. :rolleyes: It's one thing to not spread Judaism in the game because in real life, the religion is one of the few without a proselytizing credo; it's quite another to grind your ugly little prejudicial axe in public.

No wonder I change civics to Free Religion in my games as soon as I can...

On the flip side, there is the whole matter of micromanagement. Not all of us are great at it, and there are SO MANY little decisions to make at every stage of the game. It's easy to miss something; you might forget you left that Scout fortified on a hill because of a passing jaguar, or that you were in the middle of a golden age when you decided to switch civics. Is it cheating to go back a couple of turns just to fix that? Or is it just going to make the game more enjoyable and less frustrating?

1. Lol it's funny though ;/
2. Yes it is not cheating sicne I make many mistakes and have to go back many turns ;)
 
Sisiutil-

I pretty much agree completely, if you're going to cheat, especially in Civ, you for the most part are only cheating yourself. But, as you agree, there's some aspect of the game that is just micromanagement intense. Especially at the higher levels. Is it wrong to reload back once you've noticed that you've let you Capitol (very early) go four turns on the wrong resource. That can be quite a substantial difference. Do I have to start back from a new game to "beat" emporer.

That being said, the best remedy is modesty. People can say yeah I've beaten X or Y, I'll honestly tell people where I'm at. And they can judge for themselves. And I don't usually go around like "I beat Monarch" or "I beat Emporer" whatever, who really cares. But like in this discussion, I'll fess up that I reload more as I initially attempt to make a jump, but that wears off as I develop to the point I don't need it anymore.

People learn differently, some people learn through failure, others tend to learn through success. It's important to find what works for you and go with it. At the same time, if you are going to jump in to worldbuilder look at the map, and then play, you really shouldn't brag that you've beaten X level. You should if anything say, you can beat Level X-1, and are trying to move up. That's at least honest.
 
Commander Bello said:
I think Flak referred to the fact that Jews do not proselytize.

That's true...ish. We don't normally, but there always are a few exceptions (Maddona - Britney Spears & Rose?????!!!!????? Lohan), as well as others. We also make it worthwile for teens to convert as

Alcohol - minimum 2x a week, holiday in march where it is a good deed to get 'happy' (very drunk)

S** - is a mitzvah (good deed/commandment depending on interpretation), and a double mitzvah on saturdays, and is also supposed to happen after marriage, before the wedding reception (thats why bride's rooms have beds. :eek: )
 
The discussion of this complex and important topic is long overdue, but I am a bit disappointed to see it veer off in so many directions, despite Sisiutil’s best attempts to keep it on track.

1. Framing the discussion

Ethical play = fair play
To help clarify, I believe it was the OP’s intention to get to a definition of “ethical playing” in the sense of what constitutes “fair play”. A game is fair if all players interpret and apply the rules in the same way, so coming to a consensus about which settings and ways of playing are in accordance with the rules should be the goal of the discussion. This goes for multiplayer as well as singleplayer, since we compare strategies and outcomes of our sp-games on this forum.

Personal ethics vs shared play ethics
If we accept this premise, the posts about whether people find the use of slavery, fascism, nuclear weapons etc. in accordance with their personal ethics, while interesting, are beside the point. The game rules include these choices and the fact that some people consider them to be in bad taste should have no bearing on the consensus of what constitutes fair play.

2. Hard limits: Fair = Comparable

Nonstandard games
Before we look at the application of certain rules, let’s first exclude from further discussion what I would call “non-standard games”. These are games where the rules and assets (map-tiles, cities, buildings, units etc) are changed or added with a mod or the worldbuilder. While these games may well be played true to their particular rules once they start, the games themselves are different from and thus not comparable to the standard configuration of civ and should therefore be excluded from further discussion.

Picking opponents, maps and other settings
In contrast, any game that applies particular settings included in the original (and patched) versions of civ should be considered a standard game and discussed further. There has been some debate about whether picking extreme combinations of map-size, number and kinds of opponents, speeds and rule-variations to beat, say, deity isn’t “cheating”. I would say it isn’t, as the game allows for these configurations and the games can be compared fairly to games with the same settings.

When it comes to bragging rights though, all the settings used should be mentioned to allow a fair estimate of overall playing skill. I would argue that it requires more skill to win the game the more settings are randomised, but non-random setups are the same for all players and the games are thus comparable and fair.

Improving your chances
Another “hard” case for exlcusion from what constitutes comparable, fair play are actions that alter the odds of random decisions in the game. The most common case is reloading to replay turns with unfavorable outcomes, but it also includes restarting games to get a better starting location. While there is nothing “ethically” wrong with playing like this per se, it does mean you are cheating if you are comparing your games to those of others. The same is true for looking at the map in worldbuilder, which gives you information other players do not have.

Bugs
Lastly, we should consider all moves to be unfair that exploit faulty technical implementation of the rules or coding bugs that allow you to suspend the rules of the game, such as avoiding army support cost by staying in permanent anarchy or repeatedly trading the same map to the same AI for gold. A good indicator for such bugs is that, in gameplay terms, they give you something for nothing. Although these moves are made possible by the game, they allow you to situatively void its rules and should thus not be used.

3. Soft limits: Exploits

With the preceeding paragraphs, we have eliminated setups and ways of playing that are reasonably clearly outside a body of rules that allows for comparison and thus fair play. More problematic are “exploits”; ways of playing that are allowed for by the rules but give the player an advantage that upset game balance and implicitly create dominant choices, reward micromanagement or systematically take advantage of AI behaviour.

Dominant Choices
Good examples for this can be found among game mechanics from previous versions of civ that have been changed; i.e. the power of certain units and traits, or tactics like early chopping. The goal in altering these mechanics was to allow for a more balanced and varied playing experience.

We play games to improve, test and compare our skills: If one choice in the game (i.e. playing a financial civ or building a worker first and chopping all the forests available) is dominant – meaning clearly and consistently more advantageous than others - little skill is required on behalf of the player, the number of useful choices is diminished and the game as a whole suffers.

The problem lies in finding these mechanics (they often take a long time of playing before they become apparent) and determining whether they affect game balance to a degree where they need to be changed – which is where the discussion becomes interesting. I can’t think of any game mechanic that is clearly broken to the point that to use it would be “unfair”, but I have a few candidates where I have my suspicions.

One such example is slavery/whipping, especially under vanilla civ 1.61. True, this feature is in the game to let you convert people (food) into shields, but I suspect that the happiness penalty for this is inadequate, especially if you are sacrificing two or more pop-points in one go and use the spillover on projects that cannot normally be rushed. Combined with theatres and the culture slider, pop-rushing gets you large gains for very little cost. Although poprushing is clearly a dominant tactic compared to just building, I still consider it fair to use at the moment – but I would like to see it nerfed.

Micromanagement
Another problematic category is anything to do with micromanagement. Examples of this are using pre-build of units to save on maintenance cost, switching production mid-turn to take advantage of chops, using binary science (100 or 0%) to optimise research yields on commerce and pre-chopping of forest to reduce build times for a wonder. While neither of these techniques are in violation of the rules, they do reward a way of playing that, for most players, is detrimental to their enjoyment of the game. Again, I would not consider it unfair to use these techniques, but I would like to see them made ineffective in subsequent patches.

AI-Exploits
The last and probably most controversial category of exploits take advantage of how the AI is programmed. Common to all of them is that the player acts with foreknowledge of what the AI will do (based on experience) and uses tactics against it that would not work against a human player.

Of course, in the broadest sense, a game against the AI is always intrinsically unfair: The AI gets boni (uses different rules and starting values) to compensate for its strategic and tactical inadequacies (waging war, pursuing and preventing certain victory types). But since every human player competes with the same inadequate AI, the games can still be considered fair in that they are comparable to each other.

Therefore, players who use AI personality (preferred civics, religious affilliation) to their diplomatic and military advantage, research tech that the AI doesn’t prioritise for trade benefit (alphabet, drama or paper) or use military tactics that the AI does not counter well (bombardment, attacks from friendly AI’s territory where you cannot be attacked back) are arguably playing fairly, because they build on a general weakness common to all games against the AI.

However, I would call plays unethical, or unfair that actively entice the AI to make a tactical decision to its immediate disadvantage. These include luring out city defenders with a worker and gifting the AI gold/turn only to reclaim in ressource trades that will bankrupt the AI once you withdraw the credit. The difference – somehwat labored, but nonetheless – is that the player does not take advantage of a latent AI weakness but actively tricks the AI for short-term gain. I am sure there are other plays against the AI that are debatable, but these two are foremost in my mind.

Summary

1. To be fair, games need to be comparable in terms of the rules used and adhered to. Games with different rules and in-game assets do not qualify for direct comparison.

2. For the purpose of a discussion of comparable games and playing skill, reloading and restarting, looking at the map in worldbuilder or taking advantage of technical faults in the code or the way the AI is programmed should be considered unfair (hard limits).

3. Use of unbalanced game mechanics and micromanagement can be considered fair play, but should be discouraged (soft limits).
 
I rarely start any wars myself, but enjoy mostly being a peaceful builder.

I often feel sorry for small, undeveloped civilizations and not only do I refrain myself from attacking them, but sometimes try to help them when they are attacked by bullying much stronger neighbors. :crazyeye:
 
i always give techs for free to small nations, but only when they are fighting against bigger nations that are my rivals or judasm state religious nations
 
Personally I think there is a fine line between "exploit" and "creative play"
Trade withrawal (if thats the one where you gift gold to a limit, then sell resource and cut gold gifts) was a brilliant play. Kudos to the fella that came up with it. Nothing cheat about it in my opinion.
Chopping trees then switching to a queued production so the shields go to it, then switching back. Now what is unethical about that? Is it wrong because the AI doesnt do it?
The AI has plenty of advantages just from being an AI.
Reloading because of a bad combat result, to me would be cheating, and I never do it. But reloading because you hit a a wrong key or accidentally moved somewhere unintended would be OK.
 
's on the previous page of this thread.


judasm, n. - An orgasm reached while thinking about Jude Law.
 
BeefontheBone said:
judasm, n. - An orgasm reached while thinking about Jude Law.

LMAO (10 chars)
 
Thanks, Jorunkun, for that very well-written, well-considered post on this topic.

Something you said, regarding enjoying the game, stuck me as an important point, perhaps the critical one, in this discussion.

Let us not forget, as involving as Civ can be, that it is still just a game--something we do at our leisure to pass the time enjoyably. If that's the goal, then certainly in single player it's not really about cheating at all, is it? It's about whether or not how you play the game adds to or detracts from your enjoyment of it.

An example: I've actually stopped using the trade withdrawal tactic. I've come to regard it as too much of an exploit. The reason is because the AI will not cancel any of the deals that are bankrupting it. If I was on the receiving end of this tactic, I might choose to retain the deals because I need their benefits. Or I might cancel them. But the AI will not. Since the AI has not been programmed to evaluate and deal with this situation properly, I don't enjoy using the tactic anymore, so I've dropped it from my repertoire.

It's the same reason I don't go into World Builder. I don't want to know where the goody huts, barbs, resources, other civs, and other islands/continents are! Part of the fun of the game is the excitement of discovery, of uncovering the unknown and then having to adjust to it. It's more fun not knowing.

Other tactics, however--including some of those mentioned in Jorunkun's post--I still use. I don't regard pre-chopping a forest as being much different from building a road through it. Maybe the AI doesn't do it, but that's not the point. This requires care and attention on my part, and some strategic decision-making: if that Worker is pre-chopping, he's NOT doing something else like building a cottage, and maybe that would be a better task at that point. That's the fun of Civ; as Sid says, it's a series of interesting choices. The choices can have consequences both great and small, so it's agonizing (but also fun) to make them.

In summary, unless you're matching your skills at the game against others (informally with a "brag post", or especially formally in a GOTM, for example), what does it matter? Play in the way that you most enjoy, that gives you the greatest satisfaction. It's my opinion that the less you use tricks, exploits, and reloads, the more satisfied you'll be by the end result, but that may not be true for everyone.
 
Very good post Jorunkun. However I disagree with one part. The one about Ai-exploit. I think that something is only exploiting the AI if:

1) You have looked at the source code, and so can predict exactly how the AI will react.
or
2) You purpousfuly get the AI into a situation where you know it will react particularly stupid.

For eaxmple, if you start next to montezuma and know from previous games that he is likely to attack you and so build a lot of troops, that is fair play. However, if you look at the source code and know (for example) that he will attack you once he has 10 jaguar warriors, and so plan your strategy accordingly, that is explointing. An exmaple for point 2 would be stationing lots of transports full of marines just outside the enemy's culture and takiong all of their cities in one turn.
 
I don't see any problem with backing up to correct a mistake, (that's the best way to learn) or to changing the game rules, or using world builder to make the game more fun. However you should count these wins seperately from standard games because they had different rules. (like using steroids to break the home run record).
The game should recognize modded and rigged games and give them their own hall of fame.

The value and morality of any civic is determined by the quality of it's leaders, any government can be used for good or evil. (though I won't defend slavery). And for those that won't use Facism, I'm curious why a Monarchy is perfectly acceptable.
 
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